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Cataphracts


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CrocodileTearsbro #1 Posted 11 December 2016 - 02:41 AM

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http://allempires.co...p?q=cataphracts

 

An article for those looking to learn abit about the old worlds knight

 

How they may have looked https://html1-f.scri...-0567740d36.png


Edited by CrocodileTearsbro, 11 December 2016 - 02:52 AM.


Lizardguard #2 Posted 13 December 2016 - 01:23 PM

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That second picture... poor horse is getting hacked its feet off in no time like that :/

Benjamin_8 #3 Posted 15 December 2016 - 02:56 AM

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Cataphracts have always been interesting to me mainly because there were so many controversial depictions in the way they were used. GOTTA wonder though I bet most of the riders had to be small in stature/build. Even though there are depictions of scythians feet almost dragging the ground all-be-it a different style of cataphract.
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CrocodileTearsbro #4 Posted 15 December 2016 - 07:56 AM

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View PostBenjamin_8, on 15 December 2016 - 02:56 AM, said:

Cataphracts have always been interesting to me mainly because there were so many controversial depictions in the way they were used. GOTTA wonder though I bet most of the riders had to be small in stature/build. Even though there are depictions of scythians feet almost dragging the ground all-be-it a different style of cataphract.

 

It's no doubt cataphracts started on the Step, just look at the Sarmatians or Saka Tribes . I've never read of any nation tailoring cataphracts to the smaller riders, but rather the nobles, rich, and favored horse riders. Any source on that Beni, I'm interested



Benjamin_8 #5 Posted 15 December 2016 - 04:46 PM

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Oh no; no source I'm just solely going by my size 6' 6" 300Lbs and the quarter horses I have rode. I get the the European destrier is/was a large breed capable of supporting a larger rider. I also understand the steppe horse had more muscle and most quarter horses are equivalent to an Arabian breed. With all that armor man I could just imagine how many horses the riders would have went through. Just imagine all the cases of sway back there would have been. Just as important as horses were to the eastern people's I couldn't see them taking them for granted even though they were instruments of war and status for the nobility. But alas I have never found a definitive source on stating or going in detail on the size of the riders for a specific style horse combat. I know your a history buff and I was just trying to keep the interesting topic going.
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Lizardguard #6 Posted 15 December 2016 - 05:48 PM

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I´m not quite sure i understood you.... (Don´t know those size and weight numbers, am used to cm and kg, also I´m not sure about the english names of horse races)

 

But.. From what i thought i´d know, i thought steppe horses would be comparably small and durable. thats what enabled the huns to be so efficient with their hit and run strategy (or so i thought).

When you said you can only imagine how the riders would have went through their horses i´m guessing you mean because of their weight? I´m pretty sure that a horse that is used to that weight can lift it for 2 or 3 hours. I´m not saying its easy for them, but i´m sure they can do it. Apart from that, they for sure got some training that helped them gettting there, after all a real warhorse was extremely valuable. That said, i think as soon as a real battle is beeing fought, a lot of love to the animal below the rider is forgotten. i doubt a lot of them came out without major injuries.

 

Of course i might be completely wrong, but thats what i´d presume.



Benjamin_8 #7 Posted 15 December 2016 - 09:01 PM

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Okay you repeated what I said in a different manner and added an extra sentence at the end. Yes, I would agree that SOME of the care for the animal would be redirected to thoughts of survival or victory. Although I would have to add if the mentality of a Horse people/nomads was that "I doubt many come out with major injuries." then I would believe that those people would have ran out of horses or so i'd PRESUME. Breeding/replenishment to loss ratio would of been exceeded DON'T YA THINK if the survival of your steed wasn't one of the up-most important aspects of a horse people (and on the steppes battles were numerous and frequent)  when going into battle.


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CrocodileTearsbro #8 Posted 15 December 2016 - 10:25 PM

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View PostBenjamin_8, on 15 December 2016 - 09:01 PM, said:

Okay you repeated what I said in a different manner and added an extra sentence at the end. Yes, I would agree that SOME of the care for the animal would be redirected to thoughts of survival or victory. Although I would have to add if the mentality of a Horse people/nomads was that "I doubt many come out with major injuries." then I would believe that those people would have ran out of horses or so i'd PRESUME. Breeding/replenishment to loss ratio would of been exceeded DON'T YA THINK if the survival of your steed wasn't one of the up-most important aspects of a horse people (and on the steppes battles were numerous and frequent)  when going into battle.

 

Much later in time but the Mongols would bring multiple horses per person so when one got tired, they could remount a fresh one mid battle. The horses also answered to whistling from the master, and followed the owner as if they were a dog. Mongol diet also consisted of horse milk/blood when hunting was not an option. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumis The horse is/was pretty much everything to the people of the steppe

 

And I wasn't knocking you Benji just looking for some reading material until this stupid game comes back online.

 

 



Lizardguard #9 Posted 15 December 2016 - 11:54 PM

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I think he was annoyed with me rather than you, Croc, since i kinda repeated his post, but apologies for that, as i said i wasn´t sure i got you right there.

 

Steppe people versus steppe people doesn´t count here tho, since they did not have the standart battle lines like the western european armies. I mean they did not have battle lines, a lot of spears/pikes and so on. I would imagine steppes vs steppes involves a lot of shooting arrows (that should be reflected by horse armor a lot easier than a spear since a horse is kind of angular), riding into light sword infantry rather than heavy sword or light spears/medium pikes and also a lot more surprise attacks and general outmaneuvering (as in, the enemy ddidn´t even know you´re coming, just attack their camp during the night).

 

bear in mind, This is just speculations, no idea if my PRESUMATIONS (fancy word that :p) are accurate or not.



Benjamin_8 #10 Posted 16 December 2016 - 12:06 AM

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Your right everything I said made absolutely no SENSE at all and I had no bussiness stating such ignorant propaganda. I will just leave yall to it. *__*
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Lizardguard #11 Posted 16 December 2016 - 12:20 AM

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O.o

CrocodileTearsbro #12 Posted 16 December 2016 - 12:42 AM

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View PostLizardguard, on 15 December 2016 - 11:54 PM, said:

I think he was annoyed with me rather than you, Croc, since i kinda repeated his post, but apologies for that, as i said i wasn´t sure i got you right there.

 

Steppe people versus steppe people doesn´t count here tho, since they did not have the standart battle lines like the western european armies. I mean they did not have battle lines, a lot of spears/pikes and so on. I would imagine steppes vs steppes involves a lot of shooting arrows (that should be reflected by horse armor a lot easier than a spear since a horse is kind of angular), riding into light sword infantry rather than heavy sword or light spears/medium pikes and also a lot more surprise attacks and general outmaneuvering (as in, the enemy ddidn´t even know you´re coming, just attack their camp during the night).

 

bear in mind, This is just speculations, no idea if my PRESUMATIONS (fancy word that :p) are accurate or not.

 

“All the companies were clad in iron, and all parts of their bodies were covered with thick plates, so fitted that the stiff-joints conformed with those of their limbs; and the forms of human faces were so skilfully fitted to their heads, that since their entire body was covered with metal, arrows that fell upon them could lodge only where they could see a little through tiny openings opposite the pupil of the eye, or where through the tip of their nose they were able to get a little breath. Of these some who were armed with pikes, stood so motionless that you would have thought them held fast by clamps of bronze.”
 
While pre-history/classical rarely changed and was just a skirmish fest with Nomad culture that depended on the skill of your warriors, later steppe tribes accentuated heavily armored shock cavalry.  A heavily armored lancer not only made range missiles nearly a waste, but removed the use of a standard melee cavalry while giving the flexibility of crushing heavy infantry.
 
This evolution in cavalry is what changed the PreHellenistic Persian/Post Philip Greek cavalry into a proper shock cavalry, but this was learned from the Persians conflict with the Saka more than likely. 


Lizardguard #13 Posted 16 December 2016 - 12:47 AM

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Wait, so... The steppe tribes invented heavy cavalry? :O

First_Spear #14 Posted 16 December 2016 - 04:27 AM

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This is a weird thing yall got going here!


Just form Testudo already and brace yourselves; this is gonna be a long match!


CrocodileTearsbro #15 Posted 16 December 2016 - 09:50 AM

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View PostLizardguard, on 16 December 2016 - 12:47 AM, said:

Wait, so... The steppe tribes invented heavy cavalry? :O

 

The Nomads invented cavalry, not just heavy cavalry. Until the Cimmerian/Scythian invasions of the bronze age you had most empires/states using chariots as their cavalry. If you look at Egyptian/Assyrian reliefs of the day they often have their riders riding on the back fourth of a horse which is obviously a inefficient way of riding.

 

After the Scythian invasions of Mesopotamia it changed the cavalry of it's opposition. Until then for example the Persians push into Scythia http://www.cais-soas...an_campaign.htm they mostly just had skirmisher cav. After that campaign they started fielding actual melee/shock cav due to the scythians use of it.

 

This is important because after Greece combating Persia they eventually adopted the shock cavalry. Phillip/Alexander was using a hammer/anvil strategy that almost mirrored that of the near east they were fighting. Alexander's successful campaign can be credited to not only his phalangee troops but the companion cavalry that was able to smash the Persian cavalry ie.

 

"[16.7] And Alexander, being easily known by his buckler, and a large plume of white feathers on each side of his helmet, was attacked on all sides, yet escaped wounding, though his cuirass was pierced by a javelin in one of the joinings.

[16.8] And Rhoesaces and Spithridates, two Persian commanders, falling upon him at once, he avoided one of them, and struck at Rhoesaces, who had a good cuirass on, with such force that, his spear breaking in his hand, he was glad to betake himself to his dagger.

[16.9] While they were thus engaged, Spithridates came up on one side of him, and raising himself upon his horse, gave him such a blow with his battle-ax on the helmet

[16.10] that he cut off the crest of it, with one of his plumes, and the helmet was only just so far strong enough to save him, that the edge of the weapon touched the hair of his head.

[16.11] But as he was about to repeat his stroke, Clitus, called the black Clitus, prevented him, by running him through the body with his spear. At the same time Alexander dispatched Rhoesaces with his sword."

 

But again this evolution of cavalry was because of the Nomads. The Near-East was missile influenced until their adoption of cavalry, as the West was heavy infantry until the Persian influence.



Lizardguard #16 Posted 16 December 2016 - 05:40 PM

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Fascinating! Thx for the info :p

Benjamin_8 #17 Posted 18 December 2016 - 11:41 PM

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Topic died out quick and got lame so should be Closed! *__*
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First_Spear #18 Posted 19 December 2016 - 06:27 PM

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Cataphracts are cool though but still this is a weird thing yall got going here!

Just form Testudo already and brace yourselves; this is gonna be a long match!


Lizardguard #19 Posted 09 January 2017 - 08:52 PM

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Yea Topic died, sadly, but before this one should be closed there are a lot of others that died out a lot faster with a lot less interesting information within them.

 

Just saying :)



Ardez #20 Posted 09 January 2017 - 10:56 PM

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You posting in them isn't helping.

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