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Pikes are meant to be the premiere defensive unit right?


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Ancient_Exile #1 Posted 18 February 2018 - 10:47 PM

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    Then why in the world did update 2.4 bring about the change that quit allowing pikes to use Leo's "Raise Shield" ability while being in Phalanx formation? I mean if a unit is meant to be defensive then why take away those defensive tools? What just brought about my concern to this issue is earlier I took up a perfect defensive position while capping the enemy base and the archer couldn't decap as I was using "Raise Shields" but knowing I couldn't use "phalanx" at the same time he rushed in on the melee and won from de-capping all because pikes can no longer be used in a DEFENSIVE manner.......I mean the guy was completely outplayed but his team got the win because of the DEFACTO aspect that you can no longer "phalanx" and "Raise Shields" at the same time........I mean Leo is slow as all get out meant to be a tank.......So If I use him (him being Leo) to hold sections (for example) on Hadrians wall i'm forced with two options to either phalanx and get killed by missiles or raise my shields and be super vulnerable to infantry doing the FEIGN back and forth movement..................So how can Leo truly be defensive?...........The answer is he can't because you either become vulnerable to missiles or infantry so DEVS please rethink on this as I can't use Leo pikes defensively without the PROPER tools.............Tools equal abilities............I should be able to take up a DEFENSIVE position with LEONIDAS and have my pikes deployed while "Raise Shields" is active if I so choose because after all it did give a speed, vision, and melee defense PENALTY............So currently as it stands this is FORCING>>>> LEONIDAS players to attempt to be offensive.........None of the adjustments in update 2.4 have made pikes defensive but it has made them a lot easier to kill............But is DUMBING down the game for the sake of appeasing specific players really a good idea??????? Increase the penalty "Raise Shields" does to Leo but at least consider giving it back to use while in phalanx.............No one can be tactical with Leo in a base capture scenario because of the easy decaps that ranged units can get on him now......DEVELOPERS......Please reconsider this because I would love to actually be able to play a truly DEFENSIVE role with LEO again........Successfully hold a pass at least..............

"You can't get blood out of a stone"


DETrooper #2 Posted 19 February 2018 - 01:08 AM

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So, are pikes just supposed to be unstoppable walls of defense? They need a hard counter just like every other unit has.


Ancient_Exile #3 Posted 19 February 2018 - 01:33 AM

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View PostDETrooper, on 18 February 2018 - 07:08 PM, said:

So, are pikes just supposed to be unstoppable walls of defense? They need a hard counter just like every other unit has.

 

Ummmmm...Me and you have a decent bit of history that involves you tattling so Ill tread carefully here but my first reaction will be your question isn't anything to do with my suggestion to the devs so im assuming you're just trying to do that thing you do and then run off and TATTLE.......But anyways PIKEs have hard counters as in: Javelins, Arty, Light Arty, rear flanks, Fear, scorched earth, Dogs, and what about Caesar and his silence ability OMG it rocks..........You mean you actually didn't know all those things I listed are some of the hard counters to be used against pikes when they are STATIONARY guarding a pass????? This is how I know you're attempting to do your troublemaking thing you do!!!!! LoL!                       Pikes in the open are easily swatted by many things but in my suggestion I am referencing holding a pass then yes PIKES are suppose to be the "Immovable Object" as is in their description but since the update you're only left with anti infantry capability (hence phalanx) or anti missile capability (hence raise shields) and that DOESN'T coincide with making LEONIDAS pikes a defensive unit as it forces a person to be offensive with Leo pikes because if not then he will just be kited/harassed as he will be the last units left standing due to his slowness.........Ummmm don't blame me for pointing out the VALID truths about pikes..........Leo can't hold a narrow pass in this current iteration of the game because he needs both tools at once to be defensive........All the details are in the opening thread.........*__* And if you even read the post you would of saw I directed this towards the DEVS such as Paul and you still felt compelled to do that thing you do XD ...............

 

 


Edited by Ancient_Exile, 19 February 2018 - 01:38 AM.

"You can't get blood out of a stone"


DETrooper #4 Posted 19 February 2018 - 01:44 AM

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Well from the sound of it you want pikes' hard counter, missiles, removed. Then the only thing that can hurt pikes is dogs but then you can just shield bash and punish them dearly for trying. Clearly you should just be able to sit in a spot and be unkillable!


Ardez #5 Posted 19 February 2018 - 01:49 AM

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You can 'direct things towards the devs' all you want, players are going to read it and respond with their own opinions.

 

Having a choice between anti-missile or anti-infantry is still REALLY good, imo. Most units don't get to choose and only get one. Total immunity is just not good gameplay.


Edited by Ardez, 19 February 2018 - 02:27 AM.


Ancient_Exile #6 Posted 19 February 2018 - 01:53 AM

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View PostDETrooper, on 18 February 2018 - 07:44 PM, said:

Well from the sound of it you want pikes' hard counter, missiles, removed. Then the only thing that can hurt pikes is dogs but then you can just shield bash and punish them dearly for trying. Clearly you should just be able to sit in a spot and be unkillable!

 

So you don't think in that situation you should have to go around Leo pikes and flank? Raise shields is a defensive ability so send your archers around behind him and shoot then! But wait, by the sound of it you don't wanna have to flank Leo pikes with archers or infantry okay I see now..........No  not only dogs can hurt them but also other commander abilities as well such as the omni potent scorched earth in narrow pass blocking scenarios lol along with light arty.......Leo pikes should be easily countered frontally and do you realize how stale that sounds? 

"You can't get blood out of a stone"


Ancient_Exile #7 Posted 19 February 2018 - 02:05 AM

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View PostArdez, on 18 February 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:

You can 'direct things towards the devs' all you want, players are going to read it and respond with their own opinions.

 

Having a choice between anti-missile or anti-infantry is still REALLY good, imo. Most units don't get to choose and only get one. Total immunity is just not good gameplay.

 

For a unit that is suppose to function in a defensive role then the tools required for that feat are a necessary aspect that must be considered.....Its not total immunity (flank them right?) because while guarding that narrow pass Leo pikes can be flanked, bombarded, attacked by dogs, and be ANNIHILATED by scorched earth...........

As to the fact that you claim most units get one ability then why man because Romans can use Vengeance with formation and barbarian units get fancy things that portray their roles..........XD you of all people should understand where im coming from but do you boo boo! *__*


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macpla_NA #8 Posted 19 February 2018 - 02:08 AM

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1. @Ancient_Exile: Have you heard about paragraphs or adjusting your text ? Start using it because it's hard to read what you have written even if someone tries (especially if you want to be heard by Developers). 

2. Pike can change formation relatively easy and cooldown is not an obstacle here at all. If enemy will still try to shoot you down when you are in melee, then he will probably make a  huge amount of FF (your are facing enemy frontally and Archers will have to shoot your melee opponent in the back), hence he will generate more FF dmg to him than to you. If he is shooting from any other direction then even if you would use 'fight in a shade' this only provide "frontal def" so this is also not the case either. Also being tactical means that you got an upper hand over enemy - not that you have ninja capped base. 

3. You are more screwed with spears due to the 10 seconds Phalanx cooldown, so no weeping for a OP pikes plz :) 

4. What I would only consider is to give "fight in a shade" ability to work with similar mechanics as Phalanx, currently even small reposition of your squad can expose them to barrage or other missile hell, so this significantly decreases it effectiveness in comparison to Germanicus "turtle" formation since it also provide very good cover on flanks. 



balkasg #9 Posted 19 February 2018 - 02:12 AM

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View PostAncient_Exile, on 19 February 2018 - 01:33 AM, said:

But anyways PIKEs have hard counters as in: Javelins, Arty, Light Arty, rear flanks, Fear, scorched earth, Dogs, and what about Caesar and his silence ability OMG it rocks..........

 

*Queue Laugh Track* What is your definition of a "hard counter"? Is it "anything that prevents me from walking into the enemy base, forming a noob-box with pikes and winning?"

 

How are dogs a hard counter to Leonidas, have you heard of shield bash? Pikes are not anymore vulnerable to any of those things you listed than any other infantry in the game. Pikes take far less damage from arty than any other infantry because of their long-spaghetti-line formations. The difference an artillery boulder volley can do to a pike compared to a roman infantry formation or hell, even a barbarian infantry formation, is miles apart. Same deal with scorched earth. Same deal with scorpion bolts. In fact, Pikes are already better at dealing with everything you listed as a "hard counter" (except maybe fear which is whatever) than any other infantry and apparently it's still not good enough for you.

 

In another thread you want vici to only work on commander abilities (gee i wonder why...) so you clearly don't believe ceasar should be a counter to pikes. You also want leonidas pikes to be able to raise shields in addition to phalanx, so clearly you dont think javs or ranged in general should be a counter to pikes. Rear flank is not a counter to pikes, its a counter to EVERYTHING in the game, and it requires multiple units in order to defeat your SINGLE unit. Infact flanking is not even a counter to leonidas pikes because they can be completely flanked and still murder everything thanks for Hold-the-Line. So why don't you tell us what you really believe should be a counter to pikes then?

 

You are not a serious actor, you just want your favorite unit to remain completely overpowered because you are a one-trick pony who is unable to adapt so spare us... Nobody is going to take you seriously when your motives are so transparent.



macpla_NA #10 Posted 19 February 2018 - 02:23 AM

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Even I am not like balkasg's tone in his previous post I totally agree. I think he nailed it. 

 

Also I would like to add 5th point to my list. Here it is.

 

5. Use data or great thoughts, supported by even better examples how your "change" would improve gameplay for all players and help balance it. Try to be mature and data oriented and try to avoid statements like "LOL" if you want to be treated serious. 

 

As it comes to me, I am not treating you anything serious, because it is hard to disagree with your "character reference" made by balkasg.


Edited by macpla_NA, 19 February 2018 - 03:23 AM.


Ardez #11 Posted 19 February 2018 - 02:29 AM

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View Postbalkasg, on 18 February 2018 - 09:12 PM, said:

 

*Queue Laugh Track* What is your definition of a "hard counter"? Is it "anything that prevents me from walking into the enemy base, forming a noob-box with pikes and winning?"

 

How are dogs a hard counter to Leonidas, have you heard of shield bash? Pikes are not anymore vulnerable to any of those things you listed than any other infantry in the game. Pikes take far less damage from arty than any other infantry because of their long-spaghetti-line formations. The difference an artillery boulder volley can do to a pike compared to a roman infantry formation or hell, even a barbarian infantry formation, is miles apart. Same deal with scorched earth. Same deal with scorpion bolts. In fact, Pikes are already better at dealing with everything you listed as a "hard counter" (except maybe fear which is whatever) than any other infantry and apparently it's still not good enough for you.

 

In another thread you want vici to only work on commander abilities (gee i wonder why...) so you clearly don't believe ceasar should be a counter to pikes. You also want leonidas pikes to be able to raise shields in addition to phalanx, so clearly you dont think javs or ranged in general should be a counter to pikes. Rear flank is not a counter to pikes, its a counter to EVERYTHING in the game, and it requires multiple units in order to defeat your SINGLE unit. Infact flanking is not even a counter to leonidas pikes because they can be completely flanked and still murder everything thanks for Hold-the-Line. So why don't you tell us what you really believe should be a counter to pikes then?

 

You are not a serious actor, you just want your favorite unit to remain completely overpowered because you are a one-trick pony who is unable to adapt so spare us... Nobody is going to take you seriously when your motives are so transparent.

https://i.imgur.com/0mKXcg1.gif

 


Edited by Ardez, 19 February 2018 - 02:31 AM.


Ancient_Exile #12 Posted 19 February 2018 - 02:49 AM

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View Postmacpla_NA, on 18 February 2018 - 08:08 PM, said:

1. @Ancient_Exile: Have you heard about paragraphs or adjusting your text ? Start using it because it's hard to read what you have written even if someone tries (especially if you want to be heard by Developers).

2. Pike can change formation relatively easy and cooldown is not an obstacle here at all. If enemy will still try to shoot you down when you are in melee, then he will probably make a  huge amount of FF (your are facing enemy frontally and Archers will have to shoot your melee opponent in the back), hence he will generate more FF dmg to him than to you. If he is shooting from any other direction then even if you would use 'fight in a shade' this only provide "frontal def" so this is also not the case either. Also being tactical means that you got an upper hand over enemy - not that you have ninja capped base.

3. You are more screwed with spears due to the 10 seconds Phalanx cooldown, so no weeping for a OP pikes plz :)

4. What I would only consider is to give "fight in a shade" ability to work with similar mechanics as Phalanx, currently even small reposition of your squad can expose them to barrage or other missile hell, so this significantly decreases it effectiveness in comparison to Germanicus "turtle" formation since it also provide very good cover on flanks.

 

 They can read it or not as its up to them if they choose to do so or not rather I prance around with fancy formatting or not! No where did I mention cool-down and still the fact remains Leo pikes can't be the frontal defensive machine without both counterparts to aid him....

"You can't get blood out of a stone"


Ancient_Exile #13 Posted 19 February 2018 - 03:07 AM

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View Postbalkasg, on 18 February 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

 

*Queue Laugh Track* What is your definition of a "hard counter"? Is it "anything that prevents me from walking into the enemy base, forming a noob-box with pikes and winning?"

 

How are dogs a hard counter to Leonidas, have you heard of shield bash? Pikes are not anymore vulnerable to any of those things you listed than any other infantry in the game. Pikes take far less damage from arty than any other infantry because of their long-spaghetti-line formations. The difference an artillery boulder volley can do to a pike compared to a roman infantry formation or hell, even a barbarian infantry formation, is miles apart. Same deal with scorched earth. Same deal with scorpion bolts. In fact, Pikes are already better at dealing with everything you listed as a "hard counter" (except maybe fear which is whatever) than any other infantry and apparently it's still not good enough for you.

 

In another thread you want vici to only work on commander abilities (gee i wonder why...) so you clearly don't believe ceasar should be a counter to pikes. You also want leonidas pikes to be able to raise shields in addition to phalanx, so clearly you dont think javs or ranged in general should be a counter to pikes. Rear flank is not a counter to pikes, its a counter to EVERYTHING in the game, and it requires multiple units in order to defeat your SINGLE unit. Infact flanking is not even a counter to leonidas pikes because they can be completely flanked and still murder everything thanks for Hold-the-Line. So why don't you tell us what you really believe should be a counter to pikes then?

 

You are not a serious actor, you just want your favorite unit to remain completely overpowered because you are a one-trick pony who is unable to adapt so spare us... Nobody is going to take you seriously when your motives are so transparent.

 

View Postmacpla_NA, on 18 February 2018 - 08:23 PM, said:

Even I am not like totally agree with balkasg tone I think he nailed it.

 

Also I would like to add 5th point to my list. Here it is.

 

5. Use data or great thoughts, supported by even better examples how your "change" would improve gameplay for all players and help balance it. Try to be mature and data oriented and try to avoid statements like "LOL" if you want to be treated serious.

 

As it comes to me, I am not treating you anything serious, because it is hard to disagree with your "character reference" made by balkasg.

 

View PostArdez, on 18 February 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

 

XD I've adjusted to every iteration since the first Alpha with the same acceptable results rather I played as the Romans or Greeks so go ahead and do your BOO BOO's............The "Discord Clown Crew" wouldn't of came out the woodworks if my feedback wasn't CORRECT (all-be-it contradictory to the beliefs of pike haters OMG)  LoL............LoL, Leo pikes holding a narrow pass should have to be flanked not steamrolled over yall sound silly saying otherwise........And BALK Leo with HTL still routs quite often..........Pertaining to the ability "Vici" working on commander abilities only would be fair to all units in all factions also a pike player couldn't use the detrimental abilities needed to succeed (which are duhhh commander abilities).......If the DEVELOPERS are interested then here is some feedback they can ponder over while watching the "Discord Clown Crew" scurry about......*__* And DEVELOPERS please consider or test it out at least to where "Vici" only affects commander abilities.......

"You can't get blood out of a stone"


traumadisaster #14 Posted 19 February 2018 - 12:45 PM

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View Postbalkasg, on 19 February 2018 - 02:12 AM, said:

 

*Queue Laugh Track* What is your definition of a "hard counter"? Is it "anything that prevents me from walking into the enemy base, forming a noob-box with pikes and winning?"

 

How are dogs a hard counter to Leonidas, have you heard of shield bash? Pikes are not anymore vulnerable to any of those things you listed than any other infantry in the game. Pikes take far less damage from arty than any other infantry because of their long-spaghetti-line formations. The difference an artillery boulder volley can do to a pike compared to a roman infantry formation or hell, even a barbarian infantry formation, is miles apart. Same deal with scorched earth. Same deal with scorpion bolts. In fact, Pikes are already better at dealing with everything you listed as a "hard counter" (except maybe fear which is whatever) than any other infantry and apparently it's still not good enough for you.

 

In another thread you want vici to only work on commander abilities (gee i wonder why...) so you clearly don't believe ceasar should be a counter to pikes. You also want leonidas pikes to be able to raise shields in addition to phalanx, so clearly you dont think javs or ranged in general should be a counter to pikes. Rear flank is not a counter to pikes, its a counter to EVERYTHING in the game, and it requires multiple units in order to defeat your SINGLE unit. Infact flanking is not even a counter to leonidas pikes because they can be completely flanked and still murder everything thanks for Hold-the-Line. So why don't you tell us what you really believe should be a counter to pikes then?

 

You are not a serious actor, you just want your favorite unit to remain completely overpowered because you are a one-trick pony who is unable to adapt so spare us... Nobody is going to take you seriously when your motives are so transparent.

 

Hahahahahah.  And I've been saying the same thing too, but there are others noticing the same thing.   Hahahanahahahahahahahana

 

The devs made the game to work as a team.



Ancient_Exile #15 Posted 20 February 2018 - 12:10 AM

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View Posttraumadisaster, on 19 February 2018 - 06:45 AM, said:

 

Hahahahahah.  And I've been saying the same thing too, but there are others noticing the same thing.   Hahahanahahahahahahahana

 

The devs made the game to work as a team.

 

LoL, IKR nothing I said made any sense and it was just all made up at a moments whim not from loads of experience while playing tons of battles in multiple roles with multiple classes via multiple factions...................Luck Trauma as always........*__*

"You can't get blood out of a stone"


Nooberto #16 Posted 20 February 2018 - 03:37 AM

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Pikes should be the strongest defensive unit at holding a choke point, but they should have counters. In reality, I assume they could manage doing both, but this is a video game where balancing is critical to gameplay. The changes were necessary.

 

People are so hostile these days. Sheesh. I agree with Macpla_NA. If you are going to offer criticisms towards a specific opinion or implementation towards the game, you should be able to back it up with valid arguments and constructive criticism. Just poking fun at somebody for an opinion is tantamount to screaming "FAKE NEWS!"


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Ancient_Exile #17 Posted 20 February 2018 - 04:12 AM

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View PostNooberto, on 19 February 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

Pikes should be the strongest defensive unit at holding a choke point, but they should have counters. In reality, I assume they could manage doing both, but this is a video game where balancing is critical to gameplay. The changes were necessary.

 

People are so hostile these days. Sheesh. I agree with Macpla_NA. If you are going to offer criticisms towards a specific opinion or implementation towards the game, you should be able to back it up with valid arguments and constructive criticism. Just poking fun at somebody for an opinion is tantamount to screaming "FAKE NEWS!"

 

Gave you a LIKE as well..........Enjoy

"You can't get blood out of a stone"


Naacal_ #18 Posted 20 February 2018 - 07:14 AM

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I just don't understand why people defend their mains like this...

I'm making another pike feedback thread in that case :^)



gistankz #19 Posted 20 February 2018 - 01:46 PM

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It is hard to take seriously, anyone who mouse clicks their abilities. 

traumadisaster #20 Posted 20 February 2018 - 01:58 PM

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View PostRobert_Oakridge, on 20 February 2018 - 01:46 PM, said:

It is hard to take seriously, anyone who mouse clicks their abilities. 

 

I get where you are coming from, but to give him his credit...my goodness if he can do that while mouse clicking, think of how good he would be micro-ing with proper key mapping or an mmo mouse!?  

 

Despite his crazy agenda pieces you two are really super skilled, and makes it fun to be on your teams as I doddle about making a muck worse than one could imagine.






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