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Friendly Fire Penalty Way Overboard

Friendly Fire Penalty

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Ponchopolous #21 Posted 14 February 2018 - 10:28 PM

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View Post_Requiem__, on 14 February 2018 - 09:21 PM, said:

What if the penalty for FF was less for spears and pikes than for ranged?  What gets people riled up is ranged FF them because there is literally nothing you can do.  At least with infantry your allies actually have a chance to avoid the FF cause they can see you are phalanx.

 

I see where your going, and on the other side its a lot harder to damage yourself on someones arrows than on their phalanx, and archers have every opportunity to stop shooting even if it is annoying where as pikes cannot disengage without being broken. But then that leaves the opening for people to intentionally phalanx allies and get away with it, so there still needs to be some scaling along with your overall performance in battle.

_Requiem__ #22 Posted 14 February 2018 - 10:51 PM

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View PostPonchopolous, on 14 February 2018 - 10:28 PM, said:

 

But then that leaves the opening for people to intentionally phalanx allies and get away with it, .

 

I think this kind of behavior is better dealt with by a reporting system.  I see the primary role of the FF penalty to be a teaching point for players without ill intent.  Ranged that FF tons will learn from steep penalties, but at heart they are not griefers, they are just in need of education.  If a pike player wants to grief by purposely phalanxing allies for no justifiable reason I don't want them penalized more silver, I want them banned.



traumadisaster #23 Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:15 AM

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View PostAncient_Exile, on 14 February 2018 - 09:45 PM, said:

 

I completely get what you mean Ponch as I have had to deactivate pikes to accommodate greedy Roman players who want to run forward and pop off their little Vengeance then cry because the pikes couldn't de-phalanx to let them retreat..................No one allows pikes to be defensive (as in all the Roman players going Banzai and popping Vengeance for some quick aggression points)  so pike players have to use Cynane to better attempt to position to make a tactical attack (or envelopment ) because as Leo they simply see you coming and redirect to the opposite side giggling as they prance away.............I mean most of the people on this thread are pike haters anyways so man when you post anything about pikes then "They Will Come" LoL and give their 2 cents when it is quite contrary to the actual facts.........I mean take Trauma for instance I engaged him (he was using Leo Pikes) in the hot-gates the other week with 3 spear units head on just for grins and giggles; I beat him so I think his pike advice is NULL and VOID myself (just my opinion).........*__* Of all things that week he was saying how shield-bash with Leo was so exploitable and the footage I have shows him ATTEMPTING (LoL) to use that exploit 3 times to no AVAIL............XD I just hate when people give incomplete feedback..........Because you will never be able to change how all the little Romans rush forward to pop Vengeance early then retreat to wait for the cooldown on the ability later on in the match then blame pikes for not letting them through when the slow [edited] pikes had to maneuver into position for a good vantage point.........I just simply say "Woe to the Vanquished".............Luck Ponch.....:hiding:

 

You have no idea what I was doing.  I had shield up key mapped usually where pikes down is at and i had a mess because I don't use those generals much, pure inexperience.  Get a life and quit targeting me by name in the forums, people have their own opinions.  I play for fun and I suggest you try it.

 

Btw in that encounter I thought I should charge pikes through you but since you were letting me "for grins and giggles" as you said, i pulled back for no reason other than I thought someone as good as you must know some trick I was falling for, so I pulled the pike charge back and accidentally hit phalanx down instead of shield or another key map.  Any way I learned to  push on next time, there was no trick.



macpla_NA #24 Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:16 AM

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Well I am playing spears and I am doing some amount of FF per battle also. 

 

As a spear phalanx when it is in melee and your 'friendly' join the same engagement you can't always simple "break formation" since you have 10 second cooldowns between toggle. So what I am trying to do then is simply to pull off my Phalanx from this engagement, reposition and re-engage from a different angle. You could say that this is even more non-forgiving mechanics since you can't toggle phalanx instantly when your ally does a YOLO charge on you. 

 

I think that with Pikes the core problem is that ppl get used to "mowing tactic" which gives extreme DPS. So here no FF penalty is a problem, but how you can reduce the amount of FF you produce. Give Pikes more HP and nerf DPS should help you to 'escape' from such engagements. 

 

I am not seeing many archers weeping about FF system even though their playstyle requires some trade-offs and they have to make some FF for a 'greater good'. 

 

Personally in skirmishes when I have an upper hand over the enemy and my ally is greedy, yet still this engagement will be won either way without me slaughtering my ally, I'll give up phalanx. 

On the other hand if I have to hold the ground, I will do whatever is necessary. After all XP is way more valuable than silver in this game. 


Edited by macpla_NA, 15 February 2018 - 12:17 AM.


Ponchopolous #25 Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:17 AM

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View Post_Requiem__, on 14 February 2018 - 10:51 PM, said:

 

I think this kind of behavior is better dealt with by a reporting system.  I see the primary role of the FF penalty to be a teaching point for players without ill intent.  Ranged that FF tons will learn from steep penalties, but at heart they are not griefers, they are just in need of education.  If a pike player wants to grief by purposely phalanxing allies for no justifiable reason I don't want them penalized more silver, I want them banned.

 

What you've just described is the goal. Where the mechanics SHOULD be. However the FF penalty atm teaches that all FF is bad no matter what, even if it strategically the best thing for your team (ie, 1 friendly unit is surrounded by 5 enemy units and is about to break, drop a barrage and half way kill all 5 of those enemy units as well as your already 3/4 dead unit = very good choice for the whole team, or walking all the way around to do back shots to the enemy while your allies are engaged, but still inevitably do some friendly damage in the process, these are not choices that should be frowned upon). 

_Requiem__ #26 Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:33 AM

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I thought we were talking about phalanx FF?  What I'm suggesting is a straightforward adjustment where FF dealt by melee is penalized less than FF dealt by ranged.  Simple and clean.  Not a convoluted algorithm based on "contribution" to team performance.  

Ponchopolous #27 Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:48 AM

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View Post_Requiem__, on 15 February 2018 - 12:33 AM, said:

I thought we were talking about phalanx FF?  What I'm suggesting is a straightforward adjustment where FF dealt by melee is penalized less than FF dealt by ranged.  Simple and clean.  Not a convoluted algorithm based on "contribution" to team performance.  

 

" Ranged that FF tons will learn from steep penalties, but at heart they are not griefers, they are just in need of education "

I was responding to what you just said about ranged FF. The greater conversation is about both melee and ranged FF combined.



_Requiem__ #28 Posted 15 February 2018 - 01:20 AM

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Basically I responded because I'm sympathetic to the scenario or friendlies walking through your phalanx, it sucks and it's more blame on the person being FF than the person doing the FF imo.  My suggestion was one I think has a chance of being actually implemented.  I don't think CA is willing to do whatever it is you suggested about basing FF on score or whatever.  But simply less penalty for melee should be simple to implement.

Ponchopolous #29 Posted 15 February 2018 - 01:46 AM

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View Post_Requiem__, on 15 February 2018 - 01:20 AM, said:

Basically I responded because I'm sympathetic to the scenario or friendlies walking through your phalanx, it sucks and it's more blame on the person being FF than the person doing the FF imo.  My suggestion was one I think has a chance of being actually implemented.  I don't think CA is willing to do whatever it is you suggested about basing FF on score or whatever.  But simply less penalty for melee should be simple to implement.

 

Well I appreciate any feedback on it. That would be a very quick and simple fix. having an equation for it would be just as easy to implement IMO, its just the added effort of making an equation that works well in application. I'd be happy with either really.

Ardez #30 Posted 15 February 2018 - 02:01 AM

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As primarily an archer player I COMPLETELY agree with massive friendly fire penalties. I would MUCH MUCH MUCH rather see players complain about taking too high of a penalty than players complaining about a lack of serious penalty.

 

If you are even breaching 500 friendly fire in a battle you have goofed something hard.

 

That being said, I know it can be different for melee players who have to deal with other players stacking on them in combat, thus causing FF that isn't their own fault. I like the idea of having a different penalty based on the unit type.

 

It may be that this is already the case and pikes are punished more. I really couldn't say without testing it. 



Ponchopolous #31 Posted 15 February 2018 - 02:47 AM

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View PostArdez, on 15 February 2018 - 02:01 AM, said:

As primarily an archer player I COMPLETELY agree with massive friendly fire penalties. I would MUCH MUCH MUCH rather see players complain about taking too high of a penalty than players complaining about a lack of serious penalty.

 

If you are even breaching 500 friendly fire in a battle you have goofed something hard.

 

That being said, I know it can be different for melee players who have to deal with other players stacking on them in combat, thus causing FF that isn't their own fault. I like the idea of having a different penalty based on the unit type.

 

It may be that this is already the case and pikes are punished more. I really couldn't say without testing it. 

 

Why does everyone seem to have the perspective that you must pick between two terrible things? I would rather not see players complaining of too high FF penalty OR about a lack of a serious penalty, and this equilibrium is rather simple to achieve with slight changes in mechanics.

Ancient_Exile #32 Posted 15 February 2018 - 02:54 AM

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View Posttraumadisaster, on 14 February 2018 - 06:15 PM, said:

 

You have no idea what I was doing.  I had shield up key mapped usually where pikes down is at and i had a mess because I don't use those generals much, pure inexperience.  Get a life and quit targeting me by name in the forums, people have their own opinions.  I play for fun and I suggest you try it.

 

Btw in that encounter I thought I should charge pikes through you but since you were letting me "for grins and giggles" as you said, i pulled back for no reason other than I thought someone as good as you must know some trick I was falling for, so I pulled the pike charge back and accidentally hit phalanx down instead of shield or another key map.  Any way I learned to  push on next time, there was no trick.

 

As you say good-sir, but I hope you realized that the so called easily exploitable shield-bash and pike combo isn't so easily done after that go...........LoL, go play pikes some more.......No one is targeting you I was just merely pointing out aspects of incomplete feedback people provide.............Shhhhhhh :hiding:

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Ponchopolous #33 Posted 15 February 2018 - 03:20 AM

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View PostAncient_Exile, on 15 February 2018 - 02:54 AM, said:

 

As you say good-sir, but I hope you realized that the so called easily exploitable shield-bash and pike combo isn't so easily done after that go...........LoL, go play pikes some more.......No one is targeting you I was just merely pointing out aspects of incomplete feedback people provide.............Shhhhhhh :hiding:

 

Playing each unit only allows you to see the game through the perspective of that unit, it can be very difficult to speak objectively on what works best across all tiers and units, which is why theorycrafting is very important in my eyes. The correct answer is always in there somewhere, gotta be able to read through the incomplete feedback that I and all of us provide at times.

Ancient_Exile #34 Posted 15 February 2018 - 11:57 PM

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View PostPonchopolous, on 14 February 2018 - 09:20 PM, said:

 

Playing each unit only allows you to see the game through the perspective of that unit, it can be very difficult to speak objectively on what works best across all tiers and units, which is why theorycrafting is very important in my eyes. The correct answer is always in there somewhere, gotta be able to read through the incomplete feedback that I and all of us provide at times.

 

Very true Ponch, as there is never no such thing as the wrong type of feedback......EXCEPT when it comes clearly from a dissipated lack of knowledge as to what is actually going on in the game in those exact circumstances.....True, the answer is almost always there to be found while sifting through all the theory crafting just like when people say the world will end on this specific day; all-be-it the world must eventually end so someone will wind up being correct one time or another (pure happen stance not from blissfully ORDAINED knowledge though).........I think that is sorta the RHETORIC you were using in that response but whatever I get ya! :amazed:

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traumadisaster #35 Posted 16 February 2018 - 12:07 PM

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View PostAncient_Exile, on 15 February 2018 - 11:57 PM, said:

 

Very true Ponch, as there is never no such thing as the wrong type of feedback......EXCEPT when it comes clearly from a dissipated lack of knowledge as to what is actually going on in the game in those exact circumstances.....True, the answer is almost always there to be found while sifting through all the theory crafting just like when people say the world will end on this specific day; all-be-it the world must eventually end so someone will wind up being correct one time or another (pure happen stance not from blissfully ORDAINED knowledge though).........I think that is sorta the RHETORIC you were using in that response but whatever I get ya! :amazed:

 

Then there is the task if sorting through complete opposite agendas that purposefully go out of the way to give an incomplete explanation aka........... LYING.  Actually sorting through this allows one to get to the TRUTH, and thankfully the devs have their own ideas which took care of the exploits some were trying to protect.  



Ancient_Exile #36 Posted 16 February 2018 - 01:01 PM

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View Posttraumadisaster, on 16 February 2018 - 06:07 AM, said:

 

Then there is the task if sorting through complete opposite agendas that purposefully go out of the way to give an incomplete explanation aka........... LYING.  Actually sorting through this allows one to get to the TRUTH, and thankfully the devs have their own ideas which took care of the exploits some were trying to protect.

Well I'm glad you admit to LYING while giving feedback........On the other hand my [edited]has been 99 percent legitimate truth with with video footage to back it not just flapping my  mouth XD........Unlike someone I know .........Just go play pikes some more........Enjoy your day......LoL trying to shieldbash and pike I can see it now........But on a further note im gonna leave this thread now as I don't want to derail it any further (as it is a good topic) so Luck Ponch and sorry if I somehow threw it off track.........AE outzzzz


Edited by Ancient_Exile, 16 February 2018 - 02:30 PM.

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Rowdyman_ #37 Posted 16 February 2018 - 06:18 PM

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Yes Poncho this is a great topic to actually break down. I do get what your saying.  :B I am going to pay closer attention now on those stats. Because I will Pike  All :) not really just friendly fire with spears and pikes have always been there , Even though you try hard not to . but ya I get it . could be easily fixed and should be tweaked for spears and pikes .

Edited by Rowdyman_, 16 February 2018 - 06:33 PM.


Ponchopolous #38 Posted 17 February 2018 - 07:11 AM

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View PostRowdyman_, on 16 February 2018 - 06:18 PM, said:

Yes Poncho this is a great topic to actually break down. I do get what your saying.  :B I am going to pay closer attention now on those stats. Because I will Pike  All :) not really just friendly fire with spears and pikes have always been there , Even though you try hard not to . but ya I get it . could be easily fixed and should be tweaked for spears and pikes .

I try not to just post a problem, but a solution to go with it to spark conversation.

Thoughts on adding an equation to balance FF so that the penalty paid is determined in combination with your overall performance?



SwiftFishy #39 Posted 18 February 2018 - 03:25 AM

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Frankly I'm more surprised it isnt more... If it were less, I'm sure you wouldn't care, but since it is this, you will watch yourself now yes? Exactly.

KhisanthElynsynos #40 Posted 19 February 2018 - 02:46 AM

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As a new player the FF on hoplites in phalanx makes no real sense to me.  I have my single units of hoplites engaging an entire side of a blob of 3 units of swordsmen.  Then an allied cavalry hits the other side and drives through the enemies...onto my spears, so I'm starting to wrack up horrible FF points.  But I'm still fighting the remaining swordsmen so it makes no sense to me that I should need to release my phalanx and become extremely less effective.  Then to make it even worse some allied swordsmen come from behind me and try to go through me to engage the enemy, and apparently throw themselves on my spears as they run past?.

 

I'm honestly beginning to wonder if the only real way to play this game is to just play swords or cavalry, because otherwise every single fight I lose 50%+ of my silver because of the actions of my teammates.  Shooting enemies with my archers?  Eh, lets just run in front of the archers and take arrows in the back, causing me to wrack up huge penalties before I can tell my guys to stop.  Plus the fact that even when I'm behind a huge blob of enemies that are engaged ot my allies it sitll causes huge FF penalties to shoot them, despite that being a rather devastating thing to do to the enemy.  Want to use spearmen?  Well, not if there are any allies around, because spearmen/pikes are most useful in phalynx/pikes down, and apparently any allied units just throw themselves on your spears/pikes as they go past or something?







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