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Friendly Fire Penalty Way Overboard

Friendly Fire Penalty

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Ponchopolous #1 Posted 14 February 2018 - 08:44 AM

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They went way too extreme with the penalties for friendly fire. I run pikes quite regularly, and while I understand needing to punish intentional friendly fire, it is now to the point that if a friendly player decides he wants to throw his units onto my phalanx while I'm already engaged in combat, I am now forced to release phalanx and allow my unit to route and die. This is because if I keep it down and let the friendly walk stupidly into my pikes, my silver will be nuked so hard it send me negative overall even after a high performing game in all aspect other than a suicidal teammate (I've been dealing with matches like this for some time, losing all or most of my silver at the hands of another players poor play while having much much less than -1000 friendly fire. This is not a defense for unnecessary friendly fire. I chose this match to highlight just how much one friendly player can do to nuke your score even if you've performed very well otherwise).  At the moment, I've got a silver pool in the millions so it doesn't bother me to take a -50k+ penalty so I let the friendly take the damage as a learning experience, but once the reset comes and that's all gone, this will be unacceptable. 5200 Aggression points - 1000 FF = negative? That was one player trying to run his 3 units of slingers passed my already engaged and phalanxed units, I'm not going to let my entire army route and die so that this guys slingers can get passed only to also route and die.
The same is to be said for archers, if I have 3000+ aggression points, and minus a few hundred points because a few arrows hit friendly while I'm doing back shots to the enemy, I shouldn't have my silver nuked. 

I think there's a careful balance that makes friendly fire worth doing when the situation calls for it, but is still significant enough to ward off intentional greifing or just simply taking shots or angles that are not tactically sound, and where we are now has overshot that fine line by a large margin.

 

Rearrange the mechanics to be a calculation between points and FF instead of a direct (X)FF = (X)Silver loss.

 

That is to say if I had a low performing match where 1000 points of FF was half of my score, then that nuke is acceptable. However if I did 5200 aggression alone that means my pikes literally held up like 40% of the entire enemy team... at some point in all that phalanx a friendly unit charging into me should be calculated in a more particular way. As my overall points go up, the scale of FF penalty goes down by some kind of % would solve a lot of problems.


Edited by Ponchopolous, 17 February 2018 - 07:08 AM.


Ponchopolous #2 Posted 14 February 2018 - 08:51 AM

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macpla_NA #3 Posted 14 February 2018 - 10:48 AM

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1. You did 1k FF its a lot

2. [edited]happens

3. Cynane with Pikes..... 



Xeir_1 #4 Posted 14 February 2018 - 10:55 AM

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So in your opinion how developers should balance between

Players who can steal points and people who don't wish to have to many FF ?



Ponchopolous #5 Posted 14 February 2018 - 12:13 PM

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View PostXeir_1, on 14 February 2018 - 10:55 AM, said:

So in your opinion how developers should balance between

Players who can steal points and people who don't wish to have to many FF ?

 

First off I should have pointed out that the amount of silver I was charged is the exact amount of silver I earned. This is not a coincidence, it is the current system of balance, being that you can not lose more silver than you earned (minus the restock and resupply costs). The point that I'm eluding to is that -1000 FF is a somewhat arbitrary number because I've already long passed the required friendly fire to lose 100% of my earnings which is why I also left mention of archers being nuked for a few hundred points of FF when volleys do 10% friendly fire even though you are back shotting the enemy.

 

Rearrange the mechanics to be a calculation between points and FF instead of a direct (X)FF = (X)Silver loss.

 

That is to say if I had a low performing match where 1000 points of FF was half of my score, then that nuke is acceptable. However if I did 5200 aggression alone that means my pikes literally held up like 40% of the entire enemy team... at some point in all that phalanx a friendly unit charging into me should be calculated in a more particular way. As my overall points go up, the scale of FF penalty goes down by some kind of % would solve a lot of problems.
 


Edited by Ponchopolous, 14 February 2018 - 12:31 PM.


Ponchopolous #6 Posted 14 February 2018 - 12:14 PM

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View Postmacpla_NA, on 14 February 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

1. You did 1k FF its a lot

2. [edited]happens

3. Cynane with Pikes..... 

 

Cynane with pikes is incredible, you wouldn't believe the kind of advantages cynane brings to pikes.

traumadisaster #7 Posted 14 February 2018 - 01:10 PM

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System worked great, raise your pikes and retreat or lose silver.  Otherwise wait until your silver stock is back up after the wipe and then commence your teachings.



NOX_Roven #8 Posted 14 February 2018 - 07:55 PM

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Its called a PENALTY for a reason.  dont do that ish....

Ponchopolous #9 Posted 14 February 2018 - 07:58 PM

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View Posttraumadisaster, on 14 February 2018 - 01:10 PM, said:

System worked great, raise your pikes and retreat or lose silver. Otherwise wait until your silver stock is back up after the wipe and then commence your teachings.
 

 

That... doesn't make much sense. I should not be forced to commit suicide because one player wants to run his slingers into an engaged phalanx holding off roman heavy infantry. Had I done so, the slingers would still have gotten tied on the swords and died, it was really a tactical error on the part of the slings.

Ponchopolous #10 Posted 14 February 2018 - 07:59 PM

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View PostRoven12, on 14 February 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

Its called a PENALTY for a reason.  dont do that ish....

 

It is a penalty. One that used to be too minor. Now its too extreme. Kind of closed minded to just say "THATS  THE RULES STFU" when trying to discuss mechanics..

Rowdyman_ #11 Posted 14 February 2018 - 08:02 PM

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Keep your pikes down Bro pay the silver :) pick them up if you can , but keep pikes down , Ill pike you if you run into then or what lots of people do they hang out at the tips of my pikes when they see me going in ,  Makes it hard to drop but drop anyway :hiding:

 

 

 



NOX_Roven #12 Posted 14 February 2018 - 08:17 PM

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View PostPonchopolous, on 14 February 2018 - 07:59 PM, said:

 

It is a penalty. One that used to be too minor. Now its too extreme. Kind of closed minded to just say "THATS  THE RULES STFU" when trying to discuss mechanics..

 

I dont mean it like that.  I just mean avoid it, dont do it.  I know its hard brother.  Im just trying to get across that in a game like ours if friendly fire is minor, no one cares.  Its hard but then it will be vital to communicate with others.  But otherwise I wouldnt know how to fix/balance this.... its a hard lesson going through pikes the wrong way and equally sucky for the pike player. 

 


Edited by Roven12, 14 February 2018 - 08:19 PM.


Ponchopolous #13 Posted 14 February 2018 - 08:20 PM

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View PostRoven12, on 14 February 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

 

I dont mean it like that.  I just mean avoid it, dont do it.  I know its hard brother.  Just trying to get across that in a game like ours if friendly fire is minor no one cares.  Its hard but then it will be vital to communicate with others most cases.  But otherwise I wouldnt know how to fix/balance this.... its a hard lesson going through pikes the wrong way and equally sucky for the pike player. 

 

 

''Rearrange the mechanics to be a calculation between points and FF instead of a direct (X)FF = (X)Silver loss.

 

That is to say if I had a low performing match where 1000 points of FF was half of my score, then that nuke is acceptable. However if I did 5200 aggression alone that means my pikes literally held up like 40% of the entire enemy team... at some point in all that phalanx a friendly unit charging into me should be calculated in a more particular way. As my overall points go up, the scale of FF penalty goes down by some kind of % would solve a lot of problems.''

punish the players who havn't used it effectively, which would be evident in their scores.



NOX_Roven #14 Posted 14 February 2018 - 08:29 PM

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I get what you mean, but I dont aggression is just the amount of units/entity you kill.  How you manage your attacks, flank damage, surprise attacks, etc also go into your aggressions score.  

 

Listen let me ask you.... I know why you dont want to release your pikes....but lets say you have a sword that got in front of you and then he decides to flee, retreat your way...shouldnt you be mindful to pull them up?  did you tell that player not to get in front of you?  did you then warn said player you will be piking and setting the skirmish line?  I have these problems with my stakes...though I dont get ff for them anymore.  But I still thinks its important to mention to ppl or ping/write on map if I see someone doing about to murder, death, kill themselves.  

 

now think if you were on the real battle field and lets say my units went out in front of youre believing im gonna cut down a fleeing enemy but then see a stronger force and have to retreat.... you not gonna lift up your pikes bro?!

 



Ponchopolous #15 Posted 14 February 2018 - 08:38 PM

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View PostRoven12, on 14 February 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

I get what you mean, but I dont aggression is just the amount of units/entity you kill.  How you manage your attacks, flank damage, surprise attacks, etc also go into your aggressions score.  

 

Listen let me ask you.... I know why you dont want to release your pikes....but lets say you have a sword that got in front of you and then he decides to flee, retreat your way...shouldnt you be mindful to pull them up?  did you tell that player not to get in front of you?  did you then warn said player you will be piking and setting the skirmish line?  I have these problems with my stakes...though I dont get ff for them anymore.  But I still thinks its important to mention to ppl or ping/write on map if I see someone doing about to murder, death, kill themselves.  

 

now think if you were on the real battle field and lets say my units went out in front of youre believing im gonna cut down a fleeing enemy but then see a stronger force and have to retreat.... you not gonna lift up your pikes bro?!

 

 

Of course it goes without saying that I'd let them through, and if i wasn't engaged in combat i wouldn't be in pahalnx anyways TBH so that never really happens. I'm not on a high horse like everyone should just know better than to ever get in front of friendly pikes cause that's not necessarily true. I'm very quick and conscious about having my phalanx up/down, its almost always up cause i like to bait the enemy right into the very moment it drops down, its very rare my pikes cause FF damage that I would consider to be my fault.

NOX_Roven #16 Posted 14 February 2018 - 08:52 PM

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think about how often other players just dont give a frak about it when they would see it happening though....  thats whats so puzzling.  You avoid it naturally!  but others DO NOT!  which is why as not a person who cares to play pikes I need pike players and spear players to know sometimes a [edited]'s overcommitted and needs to turn back! lol  But i swear to you I have had to go around players or suffer not being able to get into a base because the player was not mindful.  thiiiiis way, they learn that lesson early!  ;)

macpla_NA #17 Posted 14 February 2018 - 09:06 PM

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View PostPonchopolous, on 14 February 2018 - 12:14 PM, said:

 

Cynane with pikes is incredible, you wouldn't believe the kind of advantages cynane brings to pikes.

 

I consider this as an exploit. I know how Cynane perform with Pikes, it's better then with other commanders even though she was not meant to be Pikes commander. 

In many other battles you will earn lot of silver if you play well so stop weeping. After all Pikes are an "ultimate defense units"  - at least according to game tooltip ;)


Edited by macpla_NA, 14 February 2018 - 09:07 PM.


_Requiem__ #18 Posted 14 February 2018 - 09:21 PM

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What if the penalty for FF was less for spears and pikes than for ranged?  What gets people riled up is ranged FF them because there is literally nothing you can do.  At least with infantry your allies actually have a chance to avoid the FF cause they can see you are phalanx.

Ancient_Exile #19 Posted 14 February 2018 - 09:45 PM

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View PostPonchopolous, on 14 February 2018 - 02:51 AM, said:

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I completely get what you mean Ponch as I have had to deactivate pikes to accommodate greedy Roman players who want to run forward and pop off their little Vengeance then cry because the pikes couldn't de-phalanx to let them retreat..................No one allows pikes to be defensive (as in all the Roman players going Banzai and popping Vengeance for some quick aggression points)  so pike players have to use Cynane to better attempt to position to make a tactical attack (or envelopment ) because as Leo they simply see you coming and redirect to the opposite side giggling as they prance away.............I mean most of the people on this thread are pike haters anyways so man when you post anything about pikes then "They Will Come" LoL and give their 2 cents when it is quite contrary to the actual facts.........I mean take Trauma for instance I engaged him (he was using Leo Pikes) in the hot-gates the other week with 3 spear units head on just for grins and giggles; I beat him so I think his pike advice is NULL and VOID myself (just my opinion).........*__* Of all things that week he was saying how shield-bash with Leo was so exploitable and the footage I have shows him ATTEMPTING (LoL) to use that exploit 3 times to no AVAIL............XD I just hate when people give incomplete feedback..........Because you will never be able to change how all the little Romans rush forward to pop Vengeance early then retreat to wait for the cooldown on the ability later on in the match then blame pikes for not letting them through when the slow [edited] pikes had to maneuver into position for a good vantage point.........I just simply say "Woe to the Vanquished".............Luck Ponch.....:hiding:

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Ponchopolous #20 Posted 14 February 2018 - 10:17 PM

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View Postmacpla_NA, on 14 February 2018 - 09:06 PM, said:

 

I consider this as an exploit. I know how Cynane perform with Pikes, it's better then with other commanders even though she was not meant to be Pikes commander. 

In many other battles you will earn lot of silver if you play well so stop weeping. After all Pikes are an "ultimate defense units"  - at least according to game tooltip ;)

 

I don't think the point of a closed beta is to figure out how to work around a poor mechanic, it is to address it and see if it can be improved upon. Yes, I will still be able to get silver and have not much problem. How is that contrary to my opinion though? I don't want one player to have that kind of impact on my return, what if I can only play a few matches a day and this happening on the odd match is actually a large percentage of my playtime being wasted? 





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