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Rework for Infiltration


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_Requiem__ #1 Posted 13 January 2018 - 12:01 AM

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Hello CA/WG,

I know that Arminius has been an often talked about commander in need of a rework by both players and devs and in keeping with the spirit of the guy, who has a pretty badass historical background, I have some suggestions for reworking infiltration,  Arminius's ultimate and potentially coolest ability. 

 

First, the obvious fix is to not let opponents discover infiltration by a simple mouse over, it's the single biggest flaw of the ability, and it's basically the reason infiltration and by extension Arminius himself is considered broken and useless and in a bad way.

 

Second, I suggest that an Arminius under infiltration should appear as an ally name to the enemy team.  If you hit infiltration the game should randomly select one of the enemy team names he should appear as that name to the enemy until he attacks and turns red name as happens now. 

 

These changes would make Arminius into an actual threat on the battlefield, something he sorely lacks now, and better represent what he accomplished historically dealing Rome one of the worst defeats in it's history by successfully portraying himself as an ally while being an enemy the entire time.

 

Thanks.



traumadisaster #2 Posted 13 January 2018 - 12:43 AM

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I disagree, ive seen lots of people tricked with his camo.im not against exploring changes but it still does work, seems like every game.  Maybe you look for it more than the avg Roman thug.

_Requiem__ #3 Posted 13 January 2018 - 01:18 AM

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Many many people look for it and see it, hence the reason that CA itself has recognised Arminius has not lived up to expectations.  An ultimate ability should at the very least potentially be effective against high level play, and infiltration simply isnt.  It should feel dangerous at high levels, and it sadly does not at all.

sicariau #4 Posted 13 January 2018 - 05:45 AM

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this does not fix Arminius. i think the issue with arminius is that hes supposed to be a hit and run commander and a glass cannon. glass his is, and at time hes a cannon. however, frenzy is far too situational and i don't think it accomplishes what it sets out too. sure you hit more often but mostly the unit set up you want as Arminius  does not include melee damage. so 14% of zero is still zero, so to speak, and mean while the enemy gets to hit you 55% more often. <probably not quite how it works but you know what i mean

 

but i think the main issue here has nothing to do with Arminius. its mainly how charge works and then how clunky retreating is. i understand wanting the models to run through an enemy unit, in game it looks really good like a real life charge would, but it might not be the best way to go in this game with the way that pathing works. if you charge in and your units go in, around, and through the other unit then retreat like you want to with Arminius, you potentially lose more men than you kill with your charge.there seems to be a way to sometimes, and by sometimes i mean it just doesn't work all the time, be able to make your units basically stop on the edge of the unit during a charge instead of going straight through them by clicking on the unit you are charging, after you hit the charge button. whether this is intended or a bug i am not sure. If it is intended then i wish it was more consistent, and if it isn't intended maybe it should be. that way at least you can have a semi decent retreat without losing your unit. i don't know maybe this helps Arminius in the late game or not but it would at least make his play style viable, or any charge reliant unit viable . and also this is for late tier 7+ as before that he felt quite strong i think mainly because some of the other commanders abilities are not yet over powered.


Edited by sicariau, 13 January 2018 - 05:51 AM.

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HeartMiner #5 Posted 13 January 2018 - 10:03 AM

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infiltration: toggle, 60sec CD, 10sec wind up. 

_Requiem__ #6 Posted 13 January 2018 - 04:40 PM

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View Postsicariau, on 13 January 2018 - 05:45 AM, said:

this does not fix Arminius. i think the issue with arminius is that hes supposed to be a hit and run commander and a glass cannon. glass his is, and at time hes a cannon. however, frenzy is far too situational and i don't think it accomplishes what it sets out too. sure you hit more often but mostly the unit set up you want as Arminius  does not include melee damage. so 14% of zero is still zero, so to speak, and mean while the enemy gets to hit you 55% more often. <probably not quite how it works but you know what i mean

 

but i think the main issue here has nothing to do with Arminius. its mainly how charge works and then how clunky retreating is. i understand wanting the models to run through an enemy unit, in game it looks really good like a real life charge would, but it might not be the best way to go in this game with the way that pathing works. if you charge in and your units go in, around, and through the other unit then retreat like you want to with Arminius, you potentially lose more men than you kill with your charge.there seems to be a way to sometimes, and by sometimes i mean it just doesn't work all the time, be able to make your units basically stop on the edge of the unit during a charge instead of going straight through them by clicking on the unit you are charging, after you hit the charge button. whether this is intended or a bug i am not sure. If it is intended then i wish it was more consistent, and if it isn't intended maybe it should be. that way at least you can have a semi decent retreat without losing your unit. i don't know maybe this helps Arminius in the late game or not but it would at least make his play style viable, or any charge reliant unit viable . and also this is for late tier 7+ as before that he felt quite strong i think mainly because some of the other commanders abilities are not yet over powered.

 

thanks for the reply, but....this thread is about infiltration, all you did was talk about frenzy and charge mechanics.....so I guess you think infiltration is in a good place? 

That's not to say I'm disagreeing with you on frenzy and charges, they may very well need to be looked at, especially frenzy, just that this thread is meant to focus on infiltration not necessarily all things Arminius.



_Requiem__ #7 Posted 13 January 2018 - 04:43 PM

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View PostHeartMiner, on 13 January 2018 - 10:03 AM, said:

infiltration: toggle, 60sec CD, 10sec wind up. 

 

You think the problem with infiltration is it's duration?

sicariau #8 Posted 14 January 2018 - 02:28 AM

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View Post_Requiem__, on 13 January 2018 - 04:40 PM, said:

 

thanks for the reply, but....this thread is about infiltration, all you did was talk about frenzy and charge mechanics.....so I guess you think infiltration is in a good place? 

That's not to say I'm disagreeing with you on frenzy and charges, they may very well need to be looked at, especially frenzy, just that this thread is meant to focus on infiltration not necessarily all things Arminius.

my point is infiltration is fine, well a shorter cd and a different upgrade than the +10 moral. you cant have it impossible to attack an enemy unit because of infiltration, which is basically what you are proposing, and changing the name, well i figure if its fooling someone they arent looking at the name. there has to be a way to play around infiltration, which at this point you can. now if you want to talk about abilities that are impossible to play around like anvil, well that is a different post entirely. my point is infiltration isnt the problem its that Arminius' play style isn't viable at high tier. and infiltration even as it is now, though weak in comparison to other commander t5 abilities, is nearly perfectly inline with that play style. and lastly, is one of three abilities, so you cant really look at it in a bubble, the abilities synergize with one another and if you change one it could potentially mess up balance and utility of the others. i also think if the goal of devs was to have abilities that play off one another, they accomplished this with arminius probably more than any other commander.

 

really what id like to see is other "ults" be more in line with infiltration not the other way around


Edited by sicariau, 14 January 2018 - 02:59 AM.

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sicariau #9 Posted 14 January 2018 - 02:43 AM

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and id also like to point out i have quite a few more games played with Arminius... like 4x as many. not saying this to be elitist, just to stress that id really like Arminius to be viable. really he felt really strong up until t5,and the feeling i got after that point was that other "ults" just negated his playstyle, all the slows, stuns etc. you know what, writing this i just had an idea, add an immunity to movement impairing effects somehow. id effen love that

Edited by sicariau, 14 January 2018 - 03:13 AM.

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wwolfvn #10 Posted 14 January 2018 - 06:06 PM

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Would be better to add +morale flank damage to infiltration, plus extra such damage when fighting in the wood. In history, Armin ambush actually routed large chunk of Roman in Teutoburg forest.

"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."


Arkkinite #11 Posted 17 January 2018 - 12:03 PM

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Maybe the issue is the ease of removal? You can pump loads of buffs to it, but the moment a roman legionary looks at you (read: throws pilum), you break the disguise and lose all the bonus immediately.

 

No too much comment on the ease of discovering an infiltrated unit though.

 

Yeah, maybe could do a with more buffs like morale flabk dmg.

 

Perhaps even if the disguise is broken, allow the bonuses of infiltrate to persist for 10-20 secs. Gives you a small window to still engage the enemy, and allows the dev to add stats like melee defence.



wwolfvn #12 Posted 17 January 2018 - 06:40 PM

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When I read back my suggestion, I recognized that I missed one key point that infiltration may get deactivated on collision, so I'd add that the buff should still be activated even infiltration gets deactivated upon contact.

"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."





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