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[RIP] Balance Suggest: Tone down all commander abilities

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wwolfvn #21 Posted 08 November 2017 - 05:23 PM

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View PostKingJofreThe001, on 07 November 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

While I'm generally on board with toning down abilities, there is literally no reason to nerf Defiance more than it already is. While barrage and vengeance are obvious contenders for OP abilities, Defiance is a poor ult that gives barbs a chance to compete with Roman counterparts. Activating it means that you guys are going to die as it doesn't buff MD and 9 times out of 10, the majority of the units will for the instant the ability ends. If it prevented ANY damage from being inflicted, then this would be an entirely different situation. I'd like to see a replay where Defiance was the defining ability that led to a victory. 

 

The original post was done when there was no T8+ Vercingetorix at the time (or I had not had chance to meet them). As of now, there are good number of Vercingetorix players come to the high tier (9/10) and they have helped reveal the fact that Defiance with Iron Discipline together at T10 are quite OP. You activate ID and slam your units to the bulk, then activate Defiance and collect kills; they can cut thru t8+ oathed fairly easily.

 

View PostDarpaHunter, on 06 November 2017 - 12:55 AM, said:

I would add to this with a slight twist.  level up the surviving units.  Average down the level when new units are refilled.  Just like the actual TW.

Allow the ability to desert a battle to preserve experienced units, but keep track of such behavior for those units.

This will add more twist to the game, where some players are so into preserving their highly decorated/leveled units they ended up running away rather than fight to the death.

 

That way, we don't really need commanders.  Just add abilities to more experienced units as they level up. 

 

Even though this is not related to the topic and should be suggested in a separated thread, I think leveling up the survivors would not be good for the team play. For example, if your units are all spent to base defense or hold opponents while your allies cap their base, then yours will receive no promotion.

"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."


DarpaHunter #22 Posted 09 November 2017 - 01:22 AM

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View Postwwolfvn, on 08 November 2017 - 05:23 PM, said:

 

The original post was done when there was no T8+ Vercingetorix at the time (or I had not had chance to meet them). As of now, there are good number of Vercingetorix players come to the high tier (9/10) and they have helped reveal the fact that Defiance with Iron Discipline together at T10 are quite OP. You activate ID and slam your units to the bulk, then activate Defiance and collect kills; they can cut thru t8+ oathed fairly easily.

 

 

Even though this is not related to the topic and should be suggested in a separated thread, I think leveling up the survivors would not be good for the team play. For example, if your units are all spent to base defense or hold opponents while your allies cap their base, then yours will receive no promotion.

 

I agree with the concerns of such suggestion in general.  Just a thought.

When to preserve your experienced units is a valid strategy.  I like the idea of stages.  Maybe make the battle 2 out of 3?

 

Defending base got no points is just the rewarding system. 

Some might want players to earn about the same points even though that player has not engaged at all.  Others would like it to be more engagement oriented.   I have no opinion either way. 

 

The biggest gripe I have is the match making fairness (between the 2 teams on that battle).  If MM is fair, none of the issues would've been overblown IMO.

Very good players could sway the outcome alone, but most middle ranged players could not.  I think most players like me don't mind losing.  I had fun losing when it's a close battle.  I stayed in spectator mode just to see what's going on because it was close and interesting.

I guess I'm off topic, but I still believe some leveling of troops make sense. 

I just don't like the strength discrepancy between tiers.  It's stupid IMO.  3 of my T5 cav lost to 1 T7 cav.  Either don't match together such wide range of units in strength (a MM algorithm), or make sure there's a counter for such discrepancy (overwhelm by number of low tier units, etc)

Leveling up troops is just my suggestion for a different kind of leveling.  Like war of tanks, Wargaming is spreading thin on unit types and grinding becomes the norm.  Low tier Greek cavalry for example is useless in most battles against same tier units.  If MM is good and fair, grinding on any level shouldn't happen. 

Leveling up troops will make the discrepancy smaller, and therefore, MM more fair.  That's what I am hoping for.



wwolfvn #23 Posted 19 November 2017 - 06:07 AM

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View PostDarpaHunter, on 08 November 2017 - 07:22 PM, said:

 

I agree with the concerns of such suggestion in general.  Just a thought.

When to preserve your experienced units is a valid strategy.  I like the idea of stages.  Maybe make the battle 2 out of 3?

 

Defending base got no points is just the rewarding system. 

Some might want players to earn about the same points even though that player has not engaged at all.  Others would like it to be more engagement oriented.   I have no opinion either way. 

 

The biggest gripe I have is the match making fairness (between the 2 teams on that battle).  If MM is fair, none of the issues would've been overblown IMO.

Very good players could sway the outcome alone, but most middle ranged players could not.  I think most players like me don't mind losing.  I had fun losing when it's a close battle.  I stayed in spectator mode just to see what's going on because it was close and interesting.

I guess I'm off topic, but I still believe some leveling of troops make sense. 

I just don't like the strength discrepancy between tiers.  It's stupid IMO.  3 of my T5 cav lost to 1 T7 cav.  Either don't match together such wide range of units in strength (a MM algorithm), or make sure there's a counter for such discrepancy (overwhelm by number of low tier units, etc)

Leveling up troops is just my suggestion for a different kind of leveling.  Like war of tanks, Wargaming is spreading thin on unit types and grinding becomes the norm.  Low tier Greek cavalry for example is useless in most battles against same tier units.  If MM is good and fair, grinding on any level shouldn't happen. 

Leveling up troops will make the discrepancy smaller, and therefore, MM more fair.  That's what I am hoping for.

 

  What you said is true, both for the tier difference and the post being off-topic. :D

 

And sadly, the current commander abilities / ultimates are deepening the tier difference and making the game off balance by a greater magnitude.


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TkzonKy #24 Posted 21 November 2017 - 12:40 AM

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-1 ... it is not a typical tw game, true. but I love it that the commanders have more influence. commanding 3 units only will become boring very quickly.

wwolfvn #25 Posted 21 November 2017 - 12:57 AM

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View PostTkzonKy, on 20 November 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

-1 ... it is not a typical tw game, true. but I love it that the commanders have more influence. commanding 3 units only will become boring very quickly.

 

Oh no!! Please don't -1. :D

 

Perhaps, you are mistaking the purpose of the post. This thread is about toning down commander abilities to make them balanced. We do not want to remove the commander abilities. Quite the contrary, we'd love to have balanced commander abilities at our disposal.


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wwolfvn #26 Posted 03 January 2018 - 12:56 AM

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Update:

 

Tone-down suggestion list for commander:

 

Skill Commander Tier Priority Reason Suggest rework
Barrage Cynane X 1 we all know what it is about  
Anvil Alex X 3

about 40s cooldown + 30s duration: too long for a disable skill that can silent + cancel attack order, disarming the victim, i.e. death.

 

 
Defiance Vercingetorix X 2-3 we all know what it is about. Verx tweak should be on contingent with Cynane's  Barrage nerf because Verx  cav is the main type of high-tier cav that quick enough to possibly maneuver to get a charge into the boxed archer+bodyguard. Nerf Defiance without Barrage nerf will be like further destroying the meta balance.  
Shield bash Leo X 3 about 15s cooldown: huge  dps  that can wipe 40% hp with phalanx thrust. Exploit it properly with back-pedaling makes Leo shield bash too devastating.  
Whip Sulla X 3-4 +80% melee attack buff is just too much since there is a -60% melee attack debuff coming from Proscription. (the insta -stake benefit of Sulla should be addressed also)  
Vengeance Germa X 4 too much melee attack/damage buff. But it's good on paper since disengaging is very easily done to render Vengeance partial useless at high tier, plus Rome inf's morale is very squishy.  
Fear Miltiades X 3-4 Long + huge debuff on morale and speed with very short cd.  
Caesar Vici X 4-5 Full upgrade increases the range of silent. And with insta-caltrop + long duration make it impossible to break the javs box guarded by spear. Let alone the speed debuff.  

 

 

Buff suggestion list for commander:

 

Skill Commander Tier Priority Reason Suggest rework
Oath of Perseverance Scipio X 1 this is the second  uselss ultimate from the top. The recent afk fixing was acting as an unintended nerf to Scipio underperformed ultimate.  
Infiltration Armin X 1

not sure if it is better to remove this skill completely or rework.

 
Frenzy Armin X 1 too many down sides tops this skill in the TWA useless-skill ranking.  
Wedge Alex X 4-5 used to be one of the OP skill at the beginning of CBT. Now it's kind of malfunctioning at this moment due to the charge nerf.  

 

 

 


Edited by wwolfvn, 03 January 2018 - 11:08 PM.

"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."


Arkkinite #27 Posted 03 January 2018 - 03:24 AM

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Thanks for the list wwolfvn.

 

I am not sure I agree on Frenzy. Though i must admit I do not pop this skill as much as i like due to the defense debuff, but that is also because i use it on cav and i need to run away after a successful charge so no point popping frenzy.

 

I agree Wedge is woky, as it does make turning very difficult. Also, it does not seem to add very much from a "Wedge backcharge + Anvil" combo; the cav at the tip of the wedge still end up blocking the cav at the rear and thus wasting damage potential.

 

Infiltrate.... i love it but also find it lackluster. The speed boost is very nice, so is the sneaky part, but that is really about it.

 

what do you all think of Ambush? 



Ardez #28 Posted 03 January 2018 - 03:28 AM

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Want to add Ambush to 'needs a buff'(I'd prefer a rework so it goes with her kit better) for Boudicca? just doesn't seem effective to me.

Edited by Ardez, 03 January 2018 - 03:29 AM.


wwolfvn #29 Posted 03 January 2018 - 03:45 AM

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View PostArkkinite, on 02 January 2018 - 09:24 PM, said:

Thanks for the list wwolfvn.

 

I am not sure I agree on Frenzy. Though i must admit I do not pop this skill as much as i like due to the defense debuff, but that is also because i use it on cav and i need to run away after a successful charge so no point popping frenzy.

 

I agree Wedge is woky, as it does make turning very difficult. Also, it does not seem to add very much from a "Wedge backcharge + Anvil" combo; the cav at the tip of the wedge still end up blocking the cav at the rear and thus wasting damage potential.

 

Infiltrate.... i love it but also find it lackluster. The speed boost is very nice, so is the sneaky part, but that is really about it.

 

what do you all think of Ambush? 

 

View PostArdez, on 02 January 2018 - 09:28 PM, said:

Want to add Ambush to 'needs a buff'(I'd prefer a rework so it goes with her kit better) for Boudicca? just doesn't seem effective to me.

 

You guys are right. I do need to add Ambush to list of buff.


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Ancient_Exile #30 Posted 03 January 2018 - 04:12 AM

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Great stuff wolfie but I still fear that people are being a little to harsh on barrage as timing and protection are required to use it adequately.......I just hope that if they nerf it its not on the damage potential end of things

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wwolfvn #31 Posted 03 January 2018 - 04:32 AM

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View PostAncient_Exile, on 02 January 2018 - 10:12 PM, said:

Great stuff wolfie but I still fear that people are being a little to harsh on barrage as timing and protection are required to use it adequately.......I just hope that if they nerf it its not on the damage potential end of things

 

  If CA just balances barrage rate and keep the missile damage, it will encourage skilled archer players and make it fair for barb archers.

"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."


Naacal_ #32 Posted 03 January 2018 - 04:38 AM

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View PostAncient_Exile, on 03 January 2018 - 04:12 AM, said:

Great stuff wolfie but I still fear that people are being a little to harsh on barrage as timing and protection are required to use it adequately.......I just hope that if they nerf it its not on the damage potential end of things

 

To be fair, you have to have a very high skill to use barrage. The angles are extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of the terrain most of the arrows will go over a typical archer player's head. There’s also hunt, which is deftly woven into Cynane's characterisation- her personal philosophy draws heavily from Homer's literature, for instance. The archer players understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these abilities, to realise that they’re not just for hunting - they say something deep about SKILL. As a consequence people who dislike Cynane's barrage truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn’t appreciate, for instance, the skill in Cynane’s existential catchphrase “BARRAGE,” which itself is a cryptic reference to Frank Miller's 300.. I’m smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as T10 archer player's genius wit unfolds itself on their 10v10 battles. What fools.. how I pity them.

wwolfvn #33 Posted 03 January 2018 - 06:54 AM

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Highly skilled players make any unit/skill (except Armin's) a lethal weapon under their control anyway. But the thing is the huge dps of barrage at the current stage is unparallel for TW Arena - an antique warfare game. It skews the game meta towards archer-heavy lineup. In high tier, as you already know well, it often takes an archer-centered party to win over another. In fact, it's not fun to go against a box archer controlled by the skilled players in high tier. In addition, it's not fair for barb archer players to go against such disadvantage of not having barrage at their disposal (and we all know the buffing war, getting one skill to match the current level of the OP one, would only deteriorate the game even further). Therefore, barrage should be tweaked as the first priority.

 

PS: update the orig post to add ambush as Arkkinite and Ardez have suggested.

 

Edited by wwolfvn, 03 January 2018 - 07:01 AM.

"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."


Arkkinite #34 Posted 03 January 2018 - 08:21 AM

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Barrage is rather painful to avoid(no pun intended).

 

There are very few abilities that can single-handedly wipe out a unit within 5 sec, save a cavalry charge.

However, it is probably easier to block cavalry charges and retaliate in the event of a cavalry charge, than it is to avoid barrage, given archers' large threat zone, and it is a lot more difficult and specific to block arrows.

 

Yes you can attempt to dodge arrows but that is a disproportionate amount of effort the Cynane and the Victim has to put in.

 

In short, this is my main issue with barrage. I have few counterplay options. I believe most of your agree.



Lastsparten #35 Posted 03 January 2018 - 06:20 PM

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people only defend barrage bc its what gets them wins. no offence but its needs a Nerf. No matter how much b's you throw into these post about how barrage needs skill and protections to use Cough* b's cough* so much b's cough* only people defending it are the people who play in groups with 2 people being archers and they barrage everything down in game. stop defending something that is clearly broken

Edited by Lastsparten, 03 January 2018 - 06:23 PM.


HeartMiner #36 Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:52 AM

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View PostNaacal_, on 03 January 2018 - 04:38 AM, said:

 

To be fair, you have to have a very high skill to use barrage. The angles are extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of the terrain most of the arrows will go over a typical archer player's head. There’s also hunt, which is deftly woven into Cynane's characterisation- her personal philosophy draws heavily from Homer's literature, for instance. The archer players understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these abilities, to realise that they’re not just for hunting - they say something deep about SKILL. As a consequence people who dislike Cynane's barrage truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn’t appreciate, for instance, the skill in Cynane’s existential catchphrase “BARRAGE,” which itself is a cryptic reference to Frank Miller's 300.. I’m smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as T10 archer player's genius wit unfolds itself on their 10v10 battles. What fools.. how I pity them.

 

wth

wwolfvn #37 Posted 11 January 2018 - 02:59 PM

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View PostHeartMiner, on 11 January 2018 - 03:52 AM, said:

 

wth

 

it was his sarcasm I guess.

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SUNTZU_DarkDusT #38 Posted 16 January 2018 - 12:52 AM

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Calling it high skill :P

 

But Amazing post!

Dev's plz take this serieus. 

Cover's most of the ability defects for many on the high tiers.

 

Went by the trouble of making this account ;)

 

Greetings from Holland and see you in game Wolf!

 

 



Arkkinite #39 Posted 17 January 2018 - 09:32 AM

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Wwolfvn

 

I just thought of something, would you kindly consider adding testudo to the list? Not so much of balancing issue but on clarity issue.

 

Because testudo has talents to improve melee def (reduce the debuff) but as we all know, testudo is disabled when people get close to you, so i dont know what that talent is for.



wwolfvn #40 Posted 19 January 2018 - 06:21 PM

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View PostArkkinite, on 17 January 2018 - 03:32 AM, said:

Wwolfvn

 

I just thought of something, would you kindly consider adding testudo to the list? Not so much of balancing issue but on clarity issue.

 

Because testudo has talents to improve melee def (reduce the debuff) but as we all know, testudo is disabled when people get close to you, so i dont know what that talent is for.

 

I added testudo (as very low priority) to the list.

 

@SUNTZU_DarkDusT: welcome to the NA forum buddy!

 


Edited by wwolfvn, 19 January 2018 - 06:29 PM.

"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."






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