Jump to content


[RIP] Balance Suggest: Tone down all commander abilities

balance ability

  • Please log in to reply
49 replies to this topic

wwolfvn #1 Posted 24 September 2017 - 04:25 PM

    Sergeant

  • Closed Alpha Gladiators
  • 481
  • Member since:
    02-24-2017

The commander abilities in TW Arena are making the game more MOBA than RTS which is the soul of Total War. Let us tone down all the commander abilities across the board. This brings at least three-fold benefits:

  1. Make Total War RTS great again in Arena. Less to no more +110% melee attack, or +80% melee defense, or sudden -30 morale, etc. in the middle of the fights. Total War Arena is a game in the Total War franchise, thus let the strategic decision and clever maneuver decide the tide of the battle, not the commander abilities. Of course, commander abilities would still be able to make impact to some extent, and offer the grinding incentive in MOBA-sense.
  2. Easier to make balance across the board. With less impact from commander abilities, it is much easier to apply tweaks to units stat and balance the game.
  3. Easier to add more new units and commanders to the game. Every new unit or commander introduced needs to be tested thoroughly to balance with the rest. Hence, less impact from commander abilities makes it easier to test and bring new units/commanders to the fold.

 

All your comments, suggestions for this topic are welcome.

 


Update: added testudo

 

In MOBA game, e.g. dota2, you can respawn multiple times in one game. You can't do it in TW Area because of the death is permanent per game. Unfortunately, the current skills + talents in TW Arena are pushing the game more and more into such MOBA direction. This should be addressed as soon as possible.

 

Tone-down suggestion list for commander:

 

Skill Commander Tier Priority Reason Suggest rework
Barrage Cynane X 1 we all know what it is about  
Anvil Alex X 3

about 40s cooldown + 30s duration: too long for a disable skill that can silent + cancel attack order, disarming the victim, i.e. death. The disarming ability makes unit under effect standing zombie (vs. walking zombie by oath).

 
Defiance Vercingetorix X 2-3 we all know what it is about. It's important to note that Verx tweak should be on contingent with Cynane's  Barrage nerf because Verx  cav is the main type of high-tier cav that quick enough to possibly maneuver to get a charge into the boxed archer+bodyguard. Nerf Defiance without Barrage nerf will likely further destroy the meta balance.  
Shield bash Leo X 3 about 15s cooldown: huge  dps  that can wipe 40% hp with phalanx thrust. Exploit it properly with back-pedaling makes Leo shield bash too devastating.  
Whip Sulla X 3-4 +80% melee attack buff is just too much since there is a -60% melee attack debuff coming from Proscription. (the insta -stake benefit of Sulla should be addressed also)  
Vengeance Germa X 4 unnecessarily exceeding melee attack/damage buff. But it's good on paper since disengaging is very easily done to render Vengeance partial useless at high tier, plus Rome inf's morale is very squishy.  
Fear Miltiades X 2-3 Long duration + huge debuff on morale and speed with very short cd. It is not fun to be constantly (yes like perma) slowdown and get -40% speed reduction, even when playing cavs.  
Vici Caesar 4-5 Full upgrade increases the range of silence. And with insta-caltrop + long duration make it impossible to break the javs box guarded by spear. Let alone the speed debuff.re;background:none;"> Imo any silence should not be enabled with significant speed debuf like caltrop.  
Testudo Germanicus X 10 Should be capped at 90%. Current can well exceed 100%.  
Hunt Cynane X 3 This ability should be removed or tweaked because it kind of breaks the strategic planning so badly. No surprise maneuver possible because 1 minute hunted from far away means your sneaky cavalry is watching 24/7 by archers & co.  

 

 

Buff suggestion list for commander:

 

Skill Commander Tier Priority Reason Suggest rework
Oath of Perseverance Scipio X 1 this is the second  uselss ultimate from the top. The recent afk fix was acting as an unintended nerf to Scipio's underperformed ultimate.  
Infiltration Armin X 1

not sure if it is better to remove this skill completely or rework.

 
Frenzy Armin X 1 too many down sides tops this skill in the TWA useless-skill ranking.  
Wedge Alex X 4-5 used to be one of the OP skill at the beginning of CBT. Now it's kind of malfunctioning at this moment due to the charge nerf.  
Ambush Boudica X 5 imo it seems to be more fitting into Armin skillset of hit & run tactic. But it needs to have some rework to tweak it in such direction at first.  
Testudo Germanicus X 10 Remove or adjust the talent that +/- melee defense because the current testudo gets deactivated upon contact. Or bring back the attack / defense testudo from Stream.  

 

 


Edited by wwolfvn, 26 February 2018 - 04:09 AM.

"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."


Ardez #2 Posted 24 September 2017 - 08:31 PM

    Zhayedan

  • Praetorian
  • 2,237
  • Member since:
    03-06-2012
A+


Cobboolio #3 Posted 24 September 2017 - 09:24 PM

    Sergeant

  • Praetorian
  • 376
  • Member since:
    11-25-2016
100% agreed.

wwolfvn #4 Posted 24 September 2017 - 10:54 PM

    Sergeant

  • Closed Alpha Gladiators
  • 481
  • Member since:
    02-24-2017

Let's tone down commander abilities once and for all.


Edited by wwolfvn, 03 January 2018 - 07:52 PM.

"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."


KingJofreThe001 #5 Posted 25 September 2017 - 10:59 AM

    Sergeant

  • Praetorian
  • 468
  • Member since:
    11-27-2016
It's the only way forward at this point to improve game health. 

#WhereisBoudica 

#WarpuppyTime


WRus #6 Posted 26 September 2017 - 12:40 AM

    Lance-corporal

  • Closed Alpha Gladiators
  • 15
  • Member since:
    02-23-2017

Yes, it's right on point. It's easily the main thing that needs to be addressed.

It's one of the two areas where improvements are badly needed.

The other one: the current morale system/ flanking damage etc

In the current state Arena is MOBA, not RTS. It's gets old pretty fast.. I've been taking a break from Arena, playing Stellaris instead.

With a new update it's a lot of fun.



wwolfvn #7 Posted 26 September 2017 - 04:05 AM

    Sergeant

  • Closed Alpha Gladiators
  • 481
  • Member since:
    02-24-2017

View PostWRus, on 25 September 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

Yes, it's right on point. It's easily the main thing that needs to be addressed.

It's one of the two areas where improvements are badly needed.

The other one: the current morale system/ flanking damage etc

In the current state Arena is MOBA, not RTS. It's gets old pretty fast.. I've been taking a break from Arena, playing Stellaris instead.

With a new update it's a lot of fun.

 

I am also lowering my play time in Arena recently. Instead, I am re-watching the Total War: Arena - Alpha Live Event 2 years ago, and still enjoy it very much. :teethhappy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NhxOtuVqjQ

 

Even I did not directly participate in this live event, it still brings back lots of good ole feelings of the Arena Alpha... Nostagia.. :)

I hope we will soon have a balanced/release version and intercontinental battles (e.g. EU vs. NA vs. RU).

 


"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."


wwolfvn #8 Posted 30 September 2017 - 03:39 PM

    Sergeant

  • Closed Alpha Gladiators
  • 481
  • Member since:
    02-24-2017

CBT Patch 2.1 is coming. According to the patch note, the commander abilities are toned down across the board (see below). The update's not available for download at this moment, so let's see :teethhappy: . But kudos to WG/CA for listening to their players' feedbacks and making changes accordingly.

 

Block Quote

 

Commander Abilities

After analyzing our data and gathering player feedback, we have balanced several commander abilities. This is part of our commitment to regular balancing, and these kinds of changes will be a regular part of the updates.

  • Alexander
    • Wedge: Reduced the base charge impact from 10% to 5%
  • Vercingetorix
    • Defiance: Changed the melee AP damage talent from an additive to a multiplier
      • The talent now scales from a previous +6 melee AP damage to a total of 40% melee AP damage over 5 levels
    • Arminius
      • Momentum:
        • Added 10% charge bonus on the base ability
        • Created a new talent for Momentum that adds a total of 10% charge bonus over 5 levels
    • Scipio
      • Wrath of Mars: Charge bonus has been reduced on talents from 50% to a total of 30%
      • Oath of Perseverance:
        • Reduced the base defense from 80% to 50%
        • Reduced the total talents defesne from 70% to 50%
    • Caesar
      • Veni:
        • Reduced the base melee defense and melee attack from 30% to 20%
        • Reduced the total defense given by talents from 40% to 30%

 http://forum.totalwararena.com/index.php?/topic/1994-closed-beta-21-patch-notes/

 

 

 

 

 

 


"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."


Cobboolio #9 Posted 02 October 2017 - 07:40 PM

    Sergeant

  • Praetorian
  • 376
  • Member since:
    11-25-2016

View Postwwolfvn, on 30 September 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

CBT Patch 2.1 is coming. According to the patch note, the commander abilities are toned down across the board (see below). The update's not available for download at this moment, so let's see :teethhappy: . But kudos to WG/CA for listening to their players' feedbacks and making changes accordingly.

 

 http://forum.totalwararena.com/index.php?/topic/1994-closed-beta-21-patch-notes/

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think this is toning down commander abilities, it's simply trying to balance them e.g. Arminius got a nice buff.

 

Having said that, I like the changes.



wwolfvn #10 Posted 02 October 2017 - 07:46 PM

    Sergeant

  • Closed Alpha Gladiators
  • 481
  • Member since:
    02-24-2017

View PostCobboolio, on 02 October 2017 - 01:40 PM, said:

I don't think this is toning down commander abilities, it's simply trying to balance them e.g. Arminius got a nice buff.

 

Having said that, I like the changes.

 

You are probably right. But let them take one step at a time. See you on the battlefield tomorrow with the new patch.

"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."


wwolfvn #11 Posted 29 October 2017 - 04:34 AM

    Sergeant

  • Closed Alpha Gladiators
  • 481
  • Member since:
    02-24-2017

 

Follow up: as of 2.1.1, the following ultimate skills should be toned down ASAP to keep Arena as a RTS not MOBA.

 

Vengeance (Rome/Germanicus): reduce the ultimate +%melee attack (max at +105% melee attack) and the active time (current: forever until unit out of melee once activated) should be reduced to 25s-30s or so.

 

Vici (Rome/Caesar): reduce the silence time from maximum 30s to 15s.

 

Oath of perseverance (Rome/Scipio): reduce charge deflect of all direction and reduce the %melee defense even more.

 

Defiance (Barbarians/Vercingetorix): reduce the +%melee attack and put some cap for active time (current: forever until unit out of melee once activated).

 

Barrage (Greek/Cynane): reduce the -%reload time to prevent the archers to shoot a constant barrage (like a rainbow of death) in a short period of time.

 

---------------

 

Thanks for your consideration.



balkasg #12 Posted 29 October 2017 - 10:45 PM

    Lance-corporal

  • Closed Alpha Gladiators
  • 89
  • Member since:
    08-31-2017

View Postwwolfvn, on 29 October 2017 - 04:34 AM, said:

Defiance (Barbarians/Vercingetorix): reduce the +%melee attack and put some cap for active time (current: forever until unit out of melee once activated).

This is already thing it has a duration of 20 seconds



R_Valle #13 Posted 30 October 2017 - 01:35 AM

    Junior Sergeant

  • Closed Alpha Gladiators
  • 179
  • Member since:
    08-18-2017
Please +1! 

Osium #14 Posted 30 October 2017 - 05:39 AM

    Lance-corporal

  • Closed Alpha Gladiators
  • 13
  • Member since:
    10-05-2012
I'm here to play total war, not DOTA. Your audience is TW fans, not DOTA fans. If I want a moba, I am going to play a moba, not a TW game. Please rely on the fundamentals of your genre, and not try to cross pollinate. I get the idea, try to appeal to a broader audience, but, all you are going to do is alienate your audience.

R_Valle #15 Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:36 PM

    Junior Sergeant

  • Closed Alpha Gladiators
  • 179
  • Member since:
    08-18-2017

Exactly! I like the ideia of bringing abilities to commanders, but it can't be something so unrealistic that goes to the "MOBA field". Im here to play a RTS game where good players with good teamwork and good maneuvering will win instead of the player that has better upgraded abilities.

 

Btw, I don't even know why can't every shielded unit have raise shields "ability", its just dumb.



Arkkinite #16 Posted 31 October 2017 - 03:37 AM

    Junior Sergeant

  • Closed Alpha Gladiators
  • 180
  • Member since:
    11-27-2016

While I appreciate the concept of less prominent commander impact to the gameplay via weaker abilities, i  will go off a tangent and say i have doubts in classifying TW games as RTS. To me, the real time and strategy are seperate here (real time battles, but most strategy comes from empire building, diplomacy, army movement and logistics etc that are trun based instead.)

In TWA, you lack most of the strategy, and are left with only troop deloyment and manouvering tactics(which is important, just not RTS really)

Warcraft was an RTS franchise, but its venture into RPG wasnt ill-advised.

 

And regardless on how you classify TW games, I for one do not want TWA to be just like any other TW grand strategy game; i seek out TWA because it promised a different but recognisable gameplay.

 

What do others of you think about how TWA should be like?



Arkkinite #17 Posted 31 October 2017 - 06:52 AM

    Junior Sergeant

  • Closed Alpha Gladiators
  • 180
  • Member since:
    11-27-2016

Back on the topic of weaker commander abilities:

After discussing this with my friend, we both feel commanders are very important to the game. Primarily, they drastically alter how the same units are played and played against.

Roman commanders are most suitable as an example: All 4 are very viable infantry commanders, but due to their skill set difference (difference made more prominent due to strong commander ability values), they are played and counter-played very differently. This adds further variety to the game: beyond different unit types, the same unit behaves differently depending on who is commanding them.

Clear methods of playing and counter-playing, as well as this added variety are important to the “fun” factor, and also makes the existence of commanders meaningful.

I am worried that weaker/toned down commander abilities would hurt this. Stronger abilities mean proper methods of play/counter-play is more important; if abilities are weak, counter-play becomes less specific and I don’t think that is good.



DarpaHunter #18 Posted 06 November 2017 - 06:55 AM

    Lance-corporal

  • Closed Alpha Gladiators
  • 31
  • Member since:
    06-28-2014

I would add to this with a slight twist.  level up the surviving units.  Average down the level when new units are refilled.  Just like the actual TW.

Allow the ability to desert a battle to preserve experienced units, but keep track of such behavior for those units.

This will add more twist to the game, where some players are so into preserving their highly decorated/leveled units they ended up running away rather than fight to the death.

 

That way, we don't really need commanders.  Just add abilities to more experienced units as they level up. 



KingJofreThe001 #19 Posted 07 November 2017 - 04:45 PM

    Sergeant

  • Praetorian
  • 468
  • Member since:
    11-27-2016
While I'm generally on board with toning down abilities, there is literally no reason to nerf Defiance more than it already is. While barrage and vengeance are obvious contenders for OP abilities, Defiance is a poor ult that gives barbs a chance to compete with Roman counterparts. Activating it means that you guys are going to die as it doesn't buff MD and 9 times out of 10, the majority of the units will for the instant the ability ends. If it prevented ANY damage from being inflicted, then this would be an entirely different situation. I'd like to see a replay where Defiance was the defining ability that led to a victory. 

#WhereisBoudica 

#WarpuppyTime


8959za94 #20 Posted 08 November 2017 - 06:09 AM

    Private

  • Closed Alpha Gladiators
  • 3
  • Member since:
    11-17-2013

View PostDarpaHunter, on 06 November 2017 - 06:55 AM, said:

I would add to this with a slight twist.  level up the surviving units.  Average down the level when new units are refilled.  Just like the actual TW.

Allow the ability to desert a battle to preserve experienced units, but keep track of such behavior for those units.

This will add more twist to the game, where some players are so into preserving their highly decorated/leveled units they ended up running away rather than fight to the death.

 

That way, we don't really need commanders.  Just add abilities to more experienced units as they level up. 

 

Not a fan of encouraging players to stay out of the fight to keep units alive. There are many situations where sacrificing an entire unit can be a necessary play to win, and its already frustrating enough having an ally bail on you to save a few more of his units leaving you to take a beating or die instead of sticking around for a net benefit.

 

Only way I see this being a positive addition is if matches could proceed in stages, with units carrying over into the next stage with reinforcements. Then its all about the strategy aspect, instead of just protecting your pretty units.







Also tagged with balance, ability

2 user(s) are reading this topic