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Scipio/Alexander Cav nerf

nerf cavalry scipio alexander

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Alaric_I #1 Posted 24 September 2017 - 02:33 AM

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I'm sure this has been harped on before but...

I'm having a hell of a time against Scipio and Alexander cavalry units. They can attack any infantry heavy or otherwise from the front and NUKE them with one charge even when they're the same unit level. I really wish I was exaggerating. The frontal attack needs to be adjusted. Understandable when used against light units, not so much against tightly packed heavy infantry. Cavalry used by these commanders is way too powerful.  

CDT_CaesarRex #2 Posted 24 September 2017 - 07:47 AM

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Noted.  Will purchase cav when level 5 :)

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Letum_Cruento #3 Posted 24 September 2017 - 09:00 AM

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I'm guessing that this is happening when being attacked from the front by spear or lance cavalry and the infantry is heavy sword.  When you have a ton of man and horse rushing at you with a spear or lance and you have a sword and shield, they are going to hit you before you hit them.  I've said this before, maybe it is people who haven't played TW before: This game will virtually require players to cooperate to win.  The side with the most teams/ groups on comms will have a MUCH better chance of winning than the team without. All of WG's other titles have had a gameplay model that allowed a one good player to dominate; this is not those games.  Its a multi-player tactical game, which I hope grows into a multiplayer strategy game (provinces, etc.).  The defense against spear-armed cavalry is spear or pike armed infantry fighting in formation.  CA has always done a good job of portraying what happens if unorganized groups of infantry face lancers/ heavy horse.  They get decimated.  It happened in real life and it will happen here.

Now, I don't know if you are fighting lancers with infantry formations with spears, or if you are fighting them with sword armed heavy infantry or even barbarians.  Barbarians will get slaughtered.  Through out history, the only thing that kept horse from running down infantry was organized infantry, fighting in formation with spears.  Otherwise, you have a upwards of a ton of man and horse coming at you at high speed with a weapon that is going to strike you before you strike it.  ANd then simple physics takes over.  If I'm wrong, then explain what the situation is so if the game is not working as intended, it can be adjusted.  But I can virtually guarantee infantry that doesn't fight in formation, with spears or pikes is going to get run down every time and that IS working as intended.

Cobboolio #4 Posted 24 September 2017 - 12:23 PM

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View PostBlydMyst, on 24 September 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

I'm guessing that this is happening when being attacked from the front by spear or lance cavalry and the infantry is heavy sword.  When you have a ton of man and horse rushing at you with a spear or lance and you have a sword and shield, they are going to hit you before you hit them.  I've said this before, maybe it is people who haven't played TW before: This game will virtually require players to cooperate to win.  The side with the most teams/ groups on comms will have a MUCH better chance of winning than the team without. All of WG's other titles have had a gameplay model that allowed a one good player to dominate; this is not those games.  Its a multi-player tactical game, which I hope grows into a multiplayer strategy game (provinces, etc.).  The defense against spear-armed cavalry is spear or pike armed infantry fighting in formation.  CA has always done a good job of portraying what happens if unorganized groups of infantry face lancers/ heavy horse.  They get decimated.  It happened in real life and it will happen here.

Now, I don't know if you are fighting lancers with infantry formations with spears, or if you are fighting them with sword armed heavy infantry or even barbarians.  Barbarians will get slaughtered.  Through out history, the only thing that kept horse from running down infantry was organized infantry, fighting in formation with spears.  Otherwise, you have a upwards of a ton of man and horse coming at you at high speed with a weapon that is going to strike you before you strike it.  ANd then simple physics takes over.  If I'm wrong, then explain what the situation is so if the game is not working as intended, it can be adjusted.  But I can virtually guarantee infantry that doesn't fight in formation, with spears or pikes is going to get run down every time and that IS working as intended.

 

When it comes to balance, the game shouldn't be historically accurate. It should be balanced so that players have an advantage using skill and teamwork.

 

Blobbing three units of cavalry and being able to devastate and rout heavy infantry with a single charge is not balanced, I think it needs a nerf.



R_Valle #5 Posted 24 September 2017 - 01:28 PM

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Block Quote

I'm guessing that this is happening when being attacked from the front by spear or lance cavalry and the infantry is heavy sword.  When you have a ton of man and horse rushing at you with a spear or lance and you have a sword and shield, they are going to hit you before you hit them.  I've said this before, maybe it is people who haven't played TW before: This game will virtually require players to cooperate to win.  The side with the most teams/ groups on comms will have a MUCH better chance of winning than the team without. All of WG's other titles have had a gameplay model that allowed a one good player to dominate; this is not those games.  Its a multi-player tactical game, which I hope grows into a multiplayer strategy game (provinces, etc.).  The defense against spear-armed cavalry is spear or pike armed infantry fighting in formation.  CA has always done a good job of portraying what happens if unorganized groups of infantry face lancers/ heavy horse.  They get decimated.  It happened in real life and it will happen here.

 

Now, I don't know if you are fighting lancers with infantry formations with spears, or if you are fighting them with sword armed heavy infantry or even barbarians.  Barbarians will get slaughtered.  Through out history, the only thing that kept horse from running down infantry was organized infantry, fighting in formation with spears.  Otherwise, you have a upwards of a ton of man and horse coming at you at high speed with a weapon that is going to strike you before you strike it.  ANd then simple physics takes over.  If I'm wrong, then explain what the situation is so if the game is not working as intended, it can be adjusted.  But I can virtually guarantee infantry that doesn't fight in formation, with spears or pikes is going to get run down every time and that IS working as intended.

 

If you are going to bring Historically accurate stuff, you shouldn't be able to make an army with most of it's units cavalry or artillery. Cavalry is an expensive unit and always has been.

But if you are going to make the game balanced and fun, you have to throw realism and historically accurate stuff through the window. A cavalry unit shouldn't be able to lay waste on an infantry if it's charging from the front, otherwise there is no cons in playing cavalry (which is what is happening, that's why you see the majority of the players playing cavs). Right now cavs can disengage pretty quickly without taking much casualties, they can rout units pretty damn fast with just one blow (alexander's), or even surround a unit and make it rout, win duels against sword units in a prolonged fight, charge every 40 seconds (if you are going to be realistic, cavs shouldn't be able to do that), charge through allies like they were not in the way, charge while standing still (no momentum) and yet do a lot of damage. Calvary is way too powerful in this game, if it continues like that, there is no reason at all to play infantry.

Edited by R_Valle, 24 September 2017 - 05:43 PM.


theSarevok #6 Posted 24 September 2017 - 08:36 PM

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lets be clear: a squad is comprised of 3 units

 

if you charge 1 cav unit into 1 inf unit the cav will not wipe the sword infantry-  in fact if you place your units properly you can usually deal a good bit of dmg to the cav as well- which are not usually suited for sustained melee. 

 

Now if you blob your whole squad (of 3 infantry units) and get charged by a cav blob, or charged from multiple sides you will rightfully get rekt and punished for being an idiot. . .  even then the cav will suffer losses from sustained melee combat and when they run out to cycle charge. 

 

seems like its obvious but some people dont understand that spears are meant to counter front cav charges, but sword infantry are not meant to do that

 

don't forget to take into account difference in upgrades, tiers, etc - yes cav charge dmg needs to be altered but its only a small part of larger issues

 

if you always fought vs same tier and worked as a team it wouldn't be nearly as much of a "problem" 

 

its not as much a question of balance its the fact that every unit in the game is not supposed to be able to beat every other unit, that's why its a team game

 


Edited by theSarevok, 24 September 2017 - 08:39 PM.


SPEEROARENACANUS #7 Posted 25 September 2017 - 04:37 PM

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This is obviously a favorite topic:

 

http://forum.totalwa...valry-infantry/

http://forum.totalwa...conquered-rome/

http://forum.totalwa...sane-amount-of/

http://forum.totalwa...must-be-nerfed/


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Praetor_Maximus #8 Posted 30 September 2017 - 12:25 PM

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Yeah, cav (especially Greek cav with Alexander) can virtually insta-rout units on a single charge. They're also so powerful and fast moving that they can route a unit on a single charge and then break the routing units and get out before any kind of support can get there. Even if support gets there they just easily sprint out to safety while taking little to no damage. Then to make things even worse players have begun to take advantage of this. In a majority of my matches Cav makes up close to 50% of armies. I've been a TW fan for years and I really enjoy this game (when I get the occasional game without cav spam armies) but it's to the point where the game is almost unplayable.

 

Personally I think one of two things needs to happen.

 

1) Every match needs a cav limit. People will quit spamming overpowered cav if they have to enter a queue and a while for it to be their turn to use cav. I wouldn't mind cav being really powerful if there was a limit on how many each team can have.

 

2) Cav needs to commit FF on charge abilities. I really don't understand why some things commit FF but others don't. If hoplite/pike phalanx causes FF, then cav charges definitely should too. People wouldn't stack all their cav together and charge in if it damaged themselves or their teammates. Pike FF makes sense but cav FF makes a heck of a lot more sense than hoplite FF.

 

Anyway I would love to see 1 or maybe even both implemented in the game.



Praetor_Maximus #9 Posted 01 October 2017 - 12:13 AM

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View PostBlydMyst, on 24 September 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

I'm guessing that this is happening when being attacked from the front by spear or lance cavalry and the infantry is heavy sword.  When you have a ton of man and horse rushing at you with a spear or lance and you have a sword and shield, they are going to hit you before you hit them.  I've said this before, maybe it is people who haven't played TW before: This game will virtually require players to cooperate to win.  The side with the most teams/ groups on comms will have a MUCH better chance of winning than the team without. All of WG's other titles have had a gameplay model that allowed a one good player to dominate; this is not those games.  Its a multi-player tactical game, which I hope grows into a multiplayer strategy game (provinces, etc.).  The defense against spear-armed cavalry is spear or pike armed infantry fighting in formation.  CA has always done a good job of portraying what happens if unorganized groups of infantry face lancers/ heavy horse.  They get decimated.  It happened in real life and it will happen here.

Now, I don't know if you are fighting lancers with infantry formations with spears, or if you are fighting them with sword armed heavy infantry or even barbarians.  Barbarians will get slaughtered.  Through out history, the only thing that kept horse from running down infantry was organized infantry, fighting in formation with spears.  Otherwise, you have a upwards of a ton of man and horse coming at you at high speed with a weapon that is going to strike you before you strike it.  ANd then simple physics takes over.  If I'm wrong, then explain what the situation is so if the game is not working as intended, it can be adjusted.  But I can virtually guarantee infantry that doesn't fight in formation, with spears or pikes is going to get run down every time and that IS working as intended.

I've played TW for a long time and have never experienced this type of devastation from cav. The game is also so fast paced and spread out that cav can completely wreck a unit and get out before any real damage can be done against them. The fact is I've lost both heavy Roman infantry and Greek Hoplites to Greek Lancer Cav while my units have been in formation and hit from the front. They virtually stack them on top of each other, charge in one makes a tiny dint in your line and then 2 more come crashing in and insta-rout your unit and virtually permanently break or cripple them before a unit can chase them off. The truth is if we're going to talk realism then the truth is real life horses in battle were unpredictable on charges into infantry. In fact they were mostly used to just charge down routing troops or charging into looser formations as horses rarely wanted to charge into any object the saw as "solid." You ever see someone riding a horse be able to make that horse run full speed into a brick wall? It doesn't happen, horses aren't mindless creatures. So are we going to add timid traits to horses and make them easily get spooked and completely ignore player control? Or maybe we should add in the fact that horses are powerful beasts that don't just magically move through other horses and friendly troops? Horses would run over friendly and enemy troops alike and if you stacked that many horses on top of each other in such a small space (as players in this game literally just stack one on top of the other on top of the other) they wouldn't be able to move without hitting and knocking each other over and trampling themselves to death. If a single horse unit charged infantry from the front and 2 more charged right in behind the first cav unit they would literally sandwich their own cav between themselves and the enemy and they'd be completely slaughtered (again if the horses were stupid enough to do that which in most cases they never would have even if the rider wanted them to.) They'd get squished from behind and hacked to death from the front. Heck if a cav comes in and charges and infantry moves out the way and they go flying into friendly archers, those archers would be trampled instead of magically undamaged. So we going to ad FF on them as well?

 

I'm only talking realism because you mentioned it but if they're going for realism they need to start back at step 1 and delete this fictional, magical, mechanical terror they currently have in the game. Not only is it not even close to realistic but it's not even close to what it should be in a balanced game. Honestly it's getting to the point where I'm not even sure if I want to continue playing. It's to the point where half of each team is cavalry and they can quickly move around the battlefield wrecking everything. Your only real hope is to go pikes and box yourself in, pool all the infantry together and hope they don't cap or try to hold out for as long as you can and hope your own cav sweeps through their infantry faster than their cav can sweep through your own. I can deal with the dogs, I can deal with artillery, I can deal with pikes, they all have weaknesses but Lancer Cav is the bane of my Arena existence. Heck I've been home all day and haven't even tried to get on Arena yet. I just know the first battle I jump into will be with a team that has 3 guys play infantry, 1 playing missiles and 6 people playing cav and I'll be playing against a team that looks almost identical. Heck I can only imagine how people who play as missile troops feel. There isn't even enough infantry on teams to make them even semi worth playing as it's virtually insta-death as there isn't even enough infantry to even semi-protect you.


Edited by Praetor_Maximus, 01 October 2017 - 12:16 AM.






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