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SPEEROARENACANUS #1 Posted 16 September 2017 - 03:08 PM

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I originally thought maybe it's just every once in a while a game is like this, but it's probably 1/3 games at higher tiers:

 

 

Their mobility and burst damage (from charges to head, rear, side, doesn't matter) is just so good compared to infantry, it almost makes infantry obsolete. Sure, you can say "get more archers & spears", but that doesn't address the issue that cavalry have effectively replaced sword infantry. Basically, if you want to play sword infantry, play Scipio with Roman cavalry instead. It's almost the same thing but with more mobility and better charging power. There are few situations (mostly guarding ranged units) that infantry have a role.

 

I don't have a grand solution on how to fix this issue. I don't think cavalry should be weaker, but something needs to be done to lessen their superiority over infantry.


"War Dogago Delenda Est."

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KingJofreThe001 #2 Posted 16 September 2017 - 03:29 PM

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These are the images that need to be shared as often as possible because it shows how unbalanced the meta has become at higher levels. The problem is that you cannot fix this problem without nerfing cavalry in some way and cavalry mains will protest because of their perception of cav weaknesses already. 

 

I believe that one key way to deal with cav is to look at charge mechanics. As it stands, Alexander cav are the flavor of the month because a triple wedge cav blob can eradicate pretty much anything in their path and then use dash to get out of dodge before the infantry can react. Mechanically, charge impact, bonus, and deflect are, as far as we have been able to tell, the main components of what goes into the charge/counter charge equation and the players need clarity on how that works. It might be that standing units need a substantive buff to charge deflect in order to prevent the blanket routs by head on charges or perhaps the community has to review the merits of returning friendly charge FF to the game. It is not optimal, but a charge must have some drawback. Charging through friendly lines to hit an enemy in combat is an effective tactic, but it doesnt make sense why missile fire deals FF if cav charges through the back of allied infantry does not. 

 

Another aspect to consider is to review terrain impact on cavalry. Wooded terrain is supposed to kneecap cav, but my barb infantry has been gutted in the woods by greek cav charges despite the supposed debuffs. This wouldnt help Roman infantry, but it would go a long way to making barb players feel more secure in their intended sanctuary. 

 

I dont believe that cav should be nerfed so hard that players abandon them because they do serve a purpose in game. However, the cav meta has been ongoing for months and it is time to reign them back into the fold. 


Edited by KingJofreThe001, 16 September 2017 - 03:32 PM.

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DreadExecutioner #3 Posted 16 September 2017 - 03:35 PM

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I think improving the damage of the infantry's Pila, at least against non infintry units, would help solve this. Charging your cavalry into a wave of Pila should hurt. A lot. Combine this with making throwing them less clunky would do wonders.

 

Increasing the braced bonus from the front and sides would also be nice. As well as how quickly you get it and an indicator so you know you have it. Maybe a charge deflect bonus (or a larger one) as well from the front when braced, based on unit depth.



wwolfvn #4 Posted 16 September 2017 - 04:04 PM

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In the current patch, the cavalry model needs multiple tweaks in my opinion. As discussed elsewhere and in my own thread some of them are:

 

(1) Friendly fire: cav units charge thru wall of friendly units attacking enemy, causing no FF damage while wiping out foes.

(2) Overpowered Greek charge: nuke damages rout opponent infantry units (esp. Rome swordmen). Very high base attack damage of Greek cav, esp amplified by high tier Alex.

(3) Cavalry ignores collision object. Similar to (1) but applies for impacting opponent on the charging path. Greek cav charges just go thru the opponent infantry individuals, inflicting damages for all men in the unit (cause more nuke damage).

(4) Rome swordmen deflect attribute is very low.

(5) Rome swordmen morale is thin and light.


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SPEEROARENACANUS #5 Posted 16 September 2017 - 04:05 PM

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View PostDreadExecutioner, on 16 September 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

I think improving the damage of the infantry's Pila, at least against non infintry units, would help solve this. Charging your cavalry into a wave of Pila should hurt. A lot. Combine this with making throwing them less clunky would do wonders.

 

Increasing the braced bonus from the front and sides would also be nice. As well as how quickly you get it and an indicator so you know you have it. Maybe a charge deflect bonus (or a larger one) as well from the front when braced, based on unit depth.

 

I agree with these points. Under Caesar vs. Pompey, Caesar infamously told his infantry flanks to use their Pila like spears, and they successfully repelled Pompey's cavalry charges from the front. I don't see why this can't be the case in this game - that cavalry charges head on into heavy/medium infantry shouldn't be as devastating to the cavalry unit itself. If you argue that wedge should not fall under this category, then the cavalry unit should take heavy casualties when pulling their unit through or out if charging from the front, as they would effectively be surrounded. In it's current form, wedge charges from the front easily devastate Roman infantry so badly that they often rout immediately.

 

The power creep from using triple cav is what stacks the most overall damage. This goes into morale damage as well. 3 units focusing one from any side (which is easy for cav to get to flanks, as it should be) will almost always instant-rout any unit unless special conditions apply (Oath, Iron Disc, etc). I was in a game earlier where my cavalry unit missed its charge on 3 enemy cavalry, so I stopped the charge before making contact - I then ordered my cavalry to move away towards their ranged units, which was my original intention to attack. The 3 cav unit simply ordered his unit to attack my cavalry's rear, which was barely even in range, and my cavalry instantly routed even though fully manned and not even taking casualties yet. 3 units on a rear flank should absolutely inflict morale damage, but the instantaneous effect without doing any unit damage doesn't make sense to me. Why would units flee in fear when they haven't even suffered casualties yet?

 

View Postwwolfvn, on 16 September 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

In the current patch, the cavalry model needs multiple tweaks in my opinion. As discussed elsewhere and in my own thread some of them are:

 

(1) Friendly fire: cav units charge thru wall of friendly units attacking enemy, causing no FF damage while wiping out foes.

(2) Overpowered Greek charge: nuke damages rout opponent infantry units (esp. Rome swordmen). Very high base attack damage of Greek cav, esp amplified by high tier Alex.

(3) Cavalry ignores collision object. Similar to (1) but applies for impacting opponent on the charging path. Greek cav charges just go thru the opponent infantry individuals, inflicting damages for all men in the unit (cause more nuke damage).

(4) Rome swordmen deflect attribute is very low.

(5) Rome swordmen morale is thin and light.

 

​Agree 100%. This covers the extent of cavalry power vs infantry.

"War Dogago Delenda Est."

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SPEEROARENACANUS #6 Posted 18 September 2017 - 08:48 PM

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Devs: Please give me a reason to keep playing infantry when this wrecks every game:

 


"War Dogago Delenda Est."

And, as always, death to War Dogs.

- Cato the Elder, 2017


R_Valle #7 Posted 18 September 2017 - 10:02 PM

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The problems with cavalry are:
1) They ignore collision with friendly units, letting them charge through a blob without any problem and wrecking everyone. They can stack three cavalry units all together and charge without any penalties, and they can charge while standing still or with little momentum too.
2) The Charge is just too good, the damage is just too great, even for heavy infantry, being spears the only exception.
3) They can disengage without any punishment. Countless times I saw a cavalry just charge through my infantry like it was nothing and just continued moving on, I couldn't do any significant damage to them while they were getting away.
4) Morale in this game is just not good, a simple left flank and a unit with 100% health just chickens out. Morale shouldn't work the way it is now, it should be more related to current unit's health and damage. A unit that is being flanked should receive more damage from the flaking unit than if it was fighting a enemy head to head (kinda obvious), if the unit's health starts to reach critical and they are losing the battle DECISIVELY then they should rout, this would also eliminate the problems with only 1 soldier surviving and fighting like Achilles. 

And the morale problem applies to Dog's too, since they are basically a flanking unit, can't count the times which I got flanked by dog's owners and just routed with all my units alive, and since the dogs gets people pinned down, the handlers just flanks and routs you. It's not that hard.


Edited by R_Valle, 19 September 2017 - 03:24 AM.


Frith #8 Posted 19 September 2017 - 01:17 AM

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Cavalry has always been more costly than infantry to equip and maintain, so there wasn't an unlimited supply of them in historical armies.  Perhaps reduce the size of the cavalry units by 10% or so?  They'd still be strong and devastate an understrength infantry unit, but matched against a full strength infantry unit, they'd have less of an advantage.


 

And I think spears, especially when they form a line and brace (I can't remember the in-game term for this tactic) should get a significant bonus against cavalry attack, as a line of braced spears is a tactic that has been historically used against a cavalry charge.



SPEEROARENACANUS #9 Posted 19 September 2017 - 01:12 PM

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View PostFrith, on 19 September 2017 - 01:17 AM, said:

Cavalry has always been more costly than infantry to equip and maintain, so there wasn't an unlimited supply of them in historical armies.  Perhaps reduce the size of the cavalry units by 10% or so?  They'd still be strong and devastate an understrength infantry unit, but matched against a full strength infantry unit, they'd have less of an advantage.


 

And I think spears, especially when they form a line and brace (I can't remember the in-game term for this tactic) should get a significant bonus against cavalry attack, as a line of braced spears is a tactic that has been historically used against a cavalry charge.

 

The unit sizes of cavalry are already small enough. They are just simply too powerful and so mobile compared to infantry that they effectively replace them, which is what we're seeing at higher tiers. No one wants to play infantry when you can play cavalry and achieve the same thing. Scipio's Oath is part of the problem, making charging into Oath'd cavalry as infantry do zero damage and turns the cavalry embedded in combat into regular infantry.

 

Spears can wreck cavalry when charged from the front - but that's not really an issue. Any smart cavalry player will easily avoid this. The problem is that all types of cavalry can wreck Roman infantry from FRONT charges. Alexander will rout all of your infantry instantly with just a front charge. Once routed, your unit is dead within seconds.

 

View PostR_Valle, on 18 September 2017 - 10:02 PM, said:

The problems with cavalry are:
1) They ignore collision with friendly units, letting them charge through a blob without any problem and wrecking everyone. They can stack three cavalry units all together and charge without any penalties, and they can charge while standing still or with little momentum too.
2) The Charge is just too good, the damage is just too great, even for heavy infantry, being spears the only exception.
3) They can disengage without any punishment. Countless times I saw a cavalry just charge through my infantry like it was nothing and just continued moving on, I couldn't do any significant damage to them while they were getting away.
4) Morale in this game is just not good, a simple left flank and a unit with 100% health just chickens out. Morale shouldn't work the way it is now, it should be more related to current unit's health and damage. A unit that is being flanked should receive more damage from the flaking unit than if it was fighting a enemy head to head (kinda obvious), if the unit's health starts to reach critical and they are losing the battle DECISIVELY then they should rout, this would also eliminate the problems with only 1 soldier surviving and fighting like Achilles. 

And the morale problem applies to Dog's too, since they are basically a flanking unit, can't count the times which I got flanked by dog's owners and just routed with all my units alive, and since the dogs gets people pinned down, the handlers just flanks and routs you. It's not that hard.

 

Agree with all of these points. The morale issues are exacerbated using infantry, as they're slower and more restricted in use and, in general, harder to play. I've found Germanicus useless in cavalry spam games, as he can be easily surrounded and routed before being able to deal damage. I've switched completely to playing infantry as Scipio with one cav unit, because under Oath my units can avoid this massive morale problem that infantry have.


"War Dogago Delenda Est."

And, as always, death to War Dogs.

- Cato the Elder, 2017


gunburned #10 Posted 19 September 2017 - 01:18 PM

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Spear units, cavs suposed hard counter doesnt hard counter cav. So in my opinion this is why they run wild.

Level9 #11 Posted 20 September 2017 - 12:00 AM

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View PostR_Valle, on 18 September 2017 - 10:02 PM, said:

The problems with cavalry are:
1) They ignore collision with friendly units, letting them charge through a blob without any problem and wrecking everyone. They can stack three cavalry units all together and charge without any penalties, and they can charge while standing still or with little momentum too.
2) The Charge is just too good, the damage is just too great, even for heavy infantry, being spears the only exception.
3) They can disengage without any punishment. Countless times I saw a cavalry just charge through my infantry like it was nothing and just continued moving on, I couldn't do any significant damage to them while they were getting away.
4) Morale in this game is just not good, a simple left flank and a unit with 100% health just chickens out. Morale shouldn't work the way it is now, it should be more related to current unit's health and damage. A unit that is being flanked should receive more damage from the flaking unit than if it was fighting a enemy head to head (kinda obvious), if the unit's health starts to reach critical and they are losing the battle DECISIVELY then they should rout, this would also eliminate the problems with only 1 soldier surviving and fighting like Achilles. 

And the morale problem applies to Dog's too, since they are basically a flanking unit, can't count the times which I got flanked by dog's owners and just routed with all my units alive, and since the dogs gets people pinned down, the handlers just flanks and routs you. It's not that hard.

 

Disagree on multiple fronts.

1) Problem is collision hitboxes and momentum. If you want more friendly fire on your troops then by all means they can change it. I'll pass.

2) Charge is the majority of their strength. In combat they are weaker even though mounted combat often lends an advantage IRL. Engaged in combat against sword or spear infantry means death. Plus most ranged units run 1 spear unit just for cav so it makes it even harder for cav at times.

3) This is just not true at all. Barbarians can do this with minimal loss but try that with Greek or Roman cav and watch your flanks get eaten till you route. Occasionally if you run through the enemy then burst out using an ability it can pay off but it is still situational. Position yourself thin and thick and you will stop the cav from breaking through I have seen.

4) Morale has tons of issues IMO, hopefully they can tweak it some.

 

The reason why people hate cav is due to their damage numbers and morale routing which deals more with general ability combinations and general morale mechanics needing work.


Edited by Level9, 20 September 2017 - 12:01 AM.


SPEEROARENACANUS #12 Posted 20 September 2017 - 05:40 PM

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View PostLevel9, on 20 September 2017 - 12:00 AM, said:

 

The reason why people hate cav is due to their damage numbers and morale routing which deals more with general ability combinations and general morale mechanics needing work.

 

Alexander's cavalry: DECIMATES any unit except spears from the front, side, back, doesn't matter. When I say decimate, I'm saying they kill 50-75% of the unit instantly AND rout it. This is such an imbalance that groups are queueing up (as evidenced above) in droves as Cavalry to simply run through opposing teams in minutes. You don't need to worry about pulling your units out after a charge because the enemy is routing. They can't hurt you.

 

Scipio's cavalry: Scipio's Oath effectively makes them as useful as sword infantry. They can withstand all charges and take forever to kill. These cavalry aren't nearly as powerful as Alexander, but they don't make Roman infantry feel unique at all. Since morale is one of the most imbalanced, least understood aspects of this game, this is where this unit really stands out. If 2-3 people go Scipio cavalry, you can hit any units from all sides, war cry, and now everyone's routed. I ask again: why play Roman infantry when this is an option?

 

Barbarian cavalry: Never see these as often. Why play this gimp cavalry when you can just run through enemies using Alexander, or stay in lengthy combats as Scipio?

 

This game has been out only a short amount of time, so people are learning this. That is why it's only at higher tiers you see this cavalry spam. They've figured out what works.


"War Dogago Delenda Est."

And, as always, death to War Dogs.

- Cato the Elder, 2017


R_Valle #13 Posted 20 September 2017 - 06:21 PM

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View PostLevel9, on 19 September 2017 - 09:00 PM, said:

 

Disagree on multiple fronts.

1) Problem is collision hitboxes and momentum. If you want more friendly fire on your troops then by all means they can change it. I'll pass.

2) Charge is the majority of their strength. In combat they are weaker even though mounted combat often lends an advantage IRL. Engaged in combat against sword or spear infantry means death. Plus most ranged units run 1 spear unit just for cav so it makes it even harder for cav at times.

3) This is just not true at all. Barbarians can do this with minimal loss but try that with Greek or Roman cav and watch your flanks get eaten till you route. Occasionally if you run through the enemy then burst out using an ability it can pay off but it is still situational. Position yourself thin and thick and you will stop the cav from breaking through I have seen.

4) Morale has tons of issues IMO, hopefully they can tweak it some.

 

The reason why people hate cav is due to their damage numbers and morale routing which deals more with general ability combinations and general morale mechanics needing work.

 

I do not want friendly fire, I want them to not be able to rush through allies like they weren't there because cmon, it's pretty stupid they being able to charge through their allies. It wasn't possible in all previous Total Wars, can't see why this needs to be different, specially if it wants to be competitive.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong then, I tried to punish cavalry that tries to flee but had no success, even held my charge ability to see if that works out... and it didn't. But @SPEEROARENACANUS has a point, Alexander's cavalry decimates everyone in their path and routs you just by touching you, they don't even bother to run after the charge. (That's the charge being to good I was talking about).

But yes, the big issue for me in Arena is the bad morale system (and dogs). As I said, morale should be related to combat and unit's health. If the unit is losing a battle decisively and a good amount of soldiers has died, they should start to lose morale and then rout after some time (present in every Total War series). Flanking should just add more damage to the unit being flanked and that's all.

Edited by R_Valle, 20 September 2017 - 06:24 PM.


SPEEROARENACANUS #14 Posted 20 September 2017 - 07:36 PM

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View PostR_Valle, on 20 September 2017 - 06:21 PM, said:


But yes, the big issue for me in Arena is the bad morale system (and dogs). As I said, morale should be related to combat and unit's health. If the unit is losing a battle decisively and a good amount of soldiers has died, they should start to lose morale and then rout after some time (present in every Total War series). Flanking should just add more damage to the unit being flanked and that's all.

 

I slightly disagree here, only in the sense that a full on rear-flank should absolutely rout the unit. I have no problem with a unit being completely surrounded and routing, it makes sense if you are able to gain this tactical advantage because it's not easy.

 

The issue I have is with left and right flanks doing morale damage. Hell, I don't even know what's causing morale damage when I charge in with Germanicus as Roman infantry. It seems as though the enemy I charge into (somehow attacking me from the side) does morale damage.

 

The other issue is the swiftness with which units rout. You have zero time to react if the enemy stacks multiple morale damaging abilities or flanks, it can rout a fully-manned unit instantly. You're telling me a group of warriors with minimal casualties are all fleeing because the enemy started attacking them from the right or left and yelled at them (warcry, etc)?

 

I don't want to get off topic too much but the morale issue and Cavalry dominance are related. The main points of this thread should be:

  • Alexander cavalry decimates units from all angles simply because his charge is too strong against heavy units and morale of these units is too weak.
  • Scipio cavalry is superior to infantry with their mobility, charge, warcry, and ability to fight sustained combat due to Oath.
  • These cavalry have replaced heavy infantry in damage, maneuverability/flanking capabilities, survivability in sustained combat, and overall usefulness in the game.

"War Dogago Delenda Est."

And, as always, death to War Dogs.

- Cato the Elder, 2017


R_Valle #15 Posted 20 September 2017 - 08:00 PM

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Yes! If you completely surround a unit you should be rewarded, specially if you manage to rear-flank them, but I do not like the idea of them instantly routing. Instead, I was thinking that they should be rewarded by doing extra damage to the unit, since they are striking at their enemies back. The unit will rout A LOT faster due to the massive damage being dealt, but not instantly like it is now. I just want the wavering mechanic similar to the previous Total War series.

KingJofreThe001 #16 Posted 20 September 2017 - 08:12 PM

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You already deal extra damage since shield armor/defense only applies if the unit is facing you. If you land attacks, then your flanking unit will deal more damage.

 

the problem with wavering in prior TW games is that it is far less predictable. I don't want to have to wonder how long a unit has left before it crumbles regardless of whether or not I am the one attacking or being attacked. You cannot plan off of the qualitative adjectives that represented morale in prior games, whereas you know if and when your unit will rout based off of the public stats that each unit has.


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R_Valle #17 Posted 20 September 2017 - 08:56 PM

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Totally! feedback is essential here, that's why the morale bar is important. Having the mechanics of previous TW games and the morale bar present in Arena, should be enough to know when a unit will rout or how much damage is needed to rout that unit.

Lawless84 #18 Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:33 PM

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Maybe the problem is with warcry, that ability create a huge moral penalty. And I believe it stacks per each unit(I could be wrong)

Ackturi #19 Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:44 PM

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If they made matchmaking where you picked your commander before matching then picked units during loading and limit the number of players allowed with that unit. Maybe that'll give people reasons to play other units.

Level9 #20 Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:49 PM

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I haven't played in the high tiers yet but around V and under Alexander with Wedge + Hammer doesn't do enough on a frontal assault to route, wipe, etc. This is why I said the issue is with generals. Their abilities are far too powerful when added up. If I can use a fully upgraded Alexander in the lower tiers and still get the benefit of their bonuses then I see an issue in regards to balance and it being unwelcoming to newer players. I haven't tested this myself so I am not sure. What I can say with absolute certainty is that I am unable to do a full route or decimate with Alexander under T5. As such a blind nerf to Calvary will also upset the balance in the lower tiers where Calvary is well balanced IMO. Dogs are the biggest issue at the moment since they break through phalanx and other defensive formations, can not only go toe to toe with infantry but can win. Combined with their range and speed they are over-tweaked. So far dogs are the only thing I feel is over powered atm in the lower tiers anyway. I haven't played anything above T5 so no idea how things go up there. 




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