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Cav needs nerfed hard


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SomeGood_OJ #1 Posted 11 September 2017 - 01:48 AM

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Cav is unbelievably overpowered. Poor infantry can't do anything about it if cave gets behind them cause of the speed. And when they lock in melee, Cav always wins. How does Cav decimate infantry in Melee. I was playing T4 Romans and engaged with t5 Greek Cav that was almost killed off. I had a full unit. I had to bail cause After 2 min My force was depleted halfway killing 6 Cav on the way. How the Hell does that work. Cav is the most broken unit in the game.

Wodyo #2 Posted 11 September 2017 - 03:11 AM

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I'm just a newb here - I joined a few days ago - but early tier Barbarian Scouts do seem a little strong. I haven't won many games (i've been using Germanicus, and failing), but the ones I have found the easiest were with [Barbarian] cavalry.

I've loved the Total War franchise since... 2000. :teethhappy: I'm sure I'll get the hang of this, sooner or later, and regret agreeing. Lol

Edited by Wodyo, 11 September 2017 - 03:43 AM.


imrik2545 #3 Posted 11 September 2017 - 01:21 PM

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It is widely accepted that Greek Cavalry is extremely overpowered right now. Roman Cav seems to be in a good place except Scipio's Oath of perseverance ability is either OP or people just don't understand how to counter it yet.



ZachA1999 #4 Posted 11 September 2017 - 01:30 PM

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Tier 5 roman cav seems OP as [edited]

balkasg #5 Posted 11 September 2017 - 05:36 PM

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Greek cavalry is ridiculous, at the very least you should not be able to charge through your own teammates like nothing and then whip out an enemy heavy infantry unit at the same time

imrik2545 #6 Posted 11 September 2017 - 06:07 PM

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View Postbalkasg, on 11 September 2017 - 05:36 PM, said:

Greek cavalry is ridiculous, at the very least you should not be able to charge through your own teammates like nothing and then whip out an enemy heavy infantry unit at the same time

 

 

This is a really good point man. If phalanx and ranged fire cause friendly fire. Why the hell don't charges, especially cav charges cause friendly fire?



SPEEROARENACANUS #7 Posted 11 September 2017 - 06:10 PM

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View Postimrik2545, on 11 September 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

 

 

This is a really good point man. If phalanx and ranged fire cause friendly fire. Why the hell don't charges, especially cav charges cause friendly fire?

 

Friendly fire charges from cavalry units are the best idea for nerfing the abuse of them that I've heard.

 

I've noticed it's not so much that Greek cav are overpowered (they're just incredibly strong) it's just that in numbers they are incredibly overpowered. If you run with 3-4 Alexander's, you can roll an entire army of anything but spears brutally. I've seen games ended in less than 3-4 minutes with this strategy. Just one charge after another that instantly routs and wipes infantry forces.


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poltrojan #8 Posted 12 September 2017 - 12:29 AM

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..... you guys have absolutely no idea what you're saying? that's what cavalry was used for entire time by good commanders.  Speed and size of the cav that attacks the rear ranks of any units is supposed to decimate it.  in fact in the entire world history cavalry were the driving forces of the enemy that causes to route entire armies.   I don't personally know histories of Greek, Roman or Barbarian cavalry but I read a lot of 17-18th century cavalry and their tactics. 

 

read up on famous cavalry charges like;

- Battle of Klushino; Polish Winged Hussars against Tsarist Russian Forces; 4000 Cavalry charged 8-10 to decimate Russian's 30,000-40,0000 forces.

- Battle of Vienna;  Polish winged Hussars with Austro and German cavalry that routed Ottoman's 100,000 force out of Vienna fields.

- Battle of Somosierra; Napolean's Polish division forces of 450 cavalry that routed Spanish forces with artillery and heavy infantry fortified in the hill of 9,000

 

use the bloody cavalry to rout or hit the flank/rear of any forces.  read the bloody history before you comment they are overpowered.



poltrojan #9 Posted 12 September 2017 - 12:30 AM

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ps. watch your bloody back if you spot enemy cavalry. awareness is the key to any battlefield.

imrik2545 #10 Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:59 PM

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View Postpoltrojan, on 12 September 2017 - 12:29 AM, said:

..... you guys have absolutely no idea what you're saying? that's what cavalry was used for entire time by good commanders.  Speed and size of the cav that attacks the rear ranks of any units is supposed to decimate it.  in fact in the entire world history cavalry were the driving forces of the enemy that causes to route entire armies.   I don't personally know histories of Greek, Roman or Barbarian cavalry but I read a lot of 17-18th century cavalry and their tactics.

 

read up on famous cavalry charges like;

- Battle of Klushino; Polish Winged Hussars against Tsarist Russian Forces; 4000 Cavalry charged 8-10 to decimate Russian's 30,000-40,0000 forces.

- Battle of Vienna;  Polish winged Hussars with Austro and German cavalry that routed Ottoman's 100,000 force out of Vienna fields.

- Battle of Somosierra; Napolean's Polish division forces of 450 cavalry that routed Spanish forces with artillery and heavy infantry fortified in the hill of 9,000

 

use the bloody cavalry to rout or hit the flank/rear of any forces.  read the bloody history before you comment they are overpowered.

 

 

  

It seems to me that we know exactly what we are saying. We aren't complaining that cav is effective when rear charging. We are complaining that cav is effecting at front charging engaged enemies, they literally ghost through friendly units just to crush enemies. Everything else in the game causes friendly fire. Please explain to me why you think cavalry and infantry charges straight into the back of friendly forces shouldn't cause friendly fire as well.

 



poltrojan #11 Posted 12 September 2017 - 11:06 PM

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View Postimrik2545, on 12 September 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

 

 

  

It seems to me that we know exactly what we are saying. We aren't complaining that cav is effective when rear charging. We are complaining that cav is effecting at front charging engaged enemies, they literally ghost through friendly units just to crush enemies. Everything else in the game causes friendly fire. Please explain to me why you think cavalry and infantry charges straight into the back of friendly forces shouldn't cause friendly fire as well.

 

 

no it doesn't ghost, i've seen friendly fire from cav and infantry charge on my units regardless of flank, front or rear. as well it depend on the level cavalry, type and commander against which unit it charges. I've personally seen few of this front charges are effective but i did sustain friendly fire, you just don't see it as large as bloody archers do.  take a closer look at videos; the cav and infantry charge are in between your unit ranks front the front.

 

- frontal Cavalry charge against infantry, archers, slingers, artilery, dogs,  - effective (depends on tier)

- frontal Cavalry charge against Cavalry - depends on timing and unit tier

- frontal Cavalry charge against spear/pikes - very low (suicidal if ranks are in phalax)

 

- flanking or rear Cavalry charge against all - devastating (even when spearman are in phalax mode)

 

In history frontal cavalry charges; most of the time were effective; i'm surprised the developers hadn't given them intimidation/fear aura during a charge against non-cavalry units with exceptions to spearman. 


Edited by poltrojan, 12 September 2017 - 11:09 PM.


KingJofreThe001 #12 Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:49 AM

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View Postpoltrojan, on 12 September 2017 - 06:06 PM, said:

 

no it doesn't ghost, i've seen friendly fire from cav and infantry charge on my units regardless of flank, front or rear. as well it depend on the level cavalry, type and commander against which unit it charges. I've personally seen few of this front charges are effective but i did sustain friendly fire, you just don't see it as large as bloody archers do.  take a closer look at videos; the cav and infantry charge are in between your unit ranks front the front.

 

- frontal Cavalry charge against infantry, archers, slingers, artilery, dogs,  - effective (depends on tier)

- frontal Cavalry charge against Cavalry - depends on timing and unit tier

- frontal Cavalry charge against spear/pikes - very low (suicidal if ranks are in phalax)

 

- flanking or rear Cavalry charge against all - devastating (even when spearman are in phalax mode)

 

In history frontal cavalry charges; most of the time were effective; i'm surprised the developers hadn't given them intimidation/fear aura during a charge against non-cavalry units with exceptions to spearman. 

 

Just for accuracy, CA removed all FF from friendly charges after the steam beta. The claim that cav can charge through friendly units without any drawbacks is absolutely true. Furthermore, you are correct that cav should be strong given their small unit size and their historic role as a flanking unit. In this role, they overwhelmingly succeed. However, if this game was based on reality, then it would function much differently across the board and using history as a barometer is hardly a decent argument. Today, there is a cav meta in this game for a reason: there are lots of strengths and few weaknesses. It is time to done down cav somewhat in order to create a better balance within the gameplay environment, which begins with a review of charge mechanics and later a balance of commander abilities/unit stats. 

 

You are likely to disagree with me, but the fact remains that Alexander cav wedges, when combined with hammer, can wipe out just about any unit barring spearmen. Make a wedge blob and they gain confident morale bonuses, which adds to their charge impact and overall lethality. In the off chance that greek cav gets caught in melee, they use dash to get out until they can rinse and repeat. It is a stale and counterproductive tactic that hardly contains any successful counter. Something has to give. This weekend's cav focus and the immense amount of kills that will eventually be attributed to them cannot solely be blamed on poor teamwork or new players not understanding how to contain these units because there is no way to contain them. 


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wwolfvn #13 Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:19 AM

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View PostKingJofreThe001, on 12 September 2017 - 06:49 PM, said:

 

Just for accuracy, CA removed all FF from friendly charges after the steam beta. The claim that cav can charge through friendly units without any drawbacks is absolutely true. Furthermore, you are correct that cav should be strong given their small unit size and their historic role as a flanking unit. In this role, they overwhelmingly succeed. However, if this game was based on reality, then it would function much differently across the board and using history as a barometer is hardly a decent argument. Today, there is a cav meta in this game for a reason: there are lots of strengths and few weaknesses. It is time to done down cav somewhat in order to create a better balance within the gameplay environment, which begins with a review of charge mechanics and later a balance of commander abilities/unit stats. 

 

You are likely to disagree with me, but the fact remains that Alexander cav wedges, when combined with hammer, can wipe out just about any unit barring spearmen. Make a wedge blob and they gain confident morale bonuses, which adds to their charge impact and overall lethality. In the off chance that greek cav gets caught in melee, they use dash to get out until they can rinse and repeat. It is a stale and counterproductive tactic that hardly contains any successful counter. Something has to give. This weekend's cav focus and the immense amount of kills that will eventually be attributed to them cannot solely be blamed on poor teamwork or new players not understanding how to contain these units because there is no way to contain them. 

 

This.

 

I found out how to counter t7 & t8 Scipio being Oath with my t7 inf, but still no way to contain t5 Greek Alex in blob wedge. One charge head-on, even if there is a wall of the infantry, allied to the cav, between mine and the blob cav, 3/4 my Rome inf units got decimated and routed. That's so ridiculous and it has been there for a very long time. Very unbalance.


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Ancient_Exile #14 Posted 13 September 2017 - 05:58 AM

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    Ohhh man where to start without offending folks! Ummm okay ummm!! First off Greek cavalry are extremely vulnerable to ranged units: slingers, archers, light arty, and javs from the ledges.....Oh my god don't even get me started on how the Phalanx on spears is immediate when concerning cavalry (the pikes have to lower their weapons ergo a small wind up time) with no wind up what so ever! I mean wedge has a 3 second wind up so why can't I just pop wedge and charge?? Geez don't mention war-dogs and the devastation they do to Greek cavalry (even when you charge them head on its absurd) everyone gets killed by a person using cavalry actively and they all get frustrated......There are so many counters to Greek cavalry......Don't say there isn't.....The most effective is for Roman infantry to use the barricade consumable (don't whine and say but I don't wanna use consumables) yes its even more effective than stakes actually......Take Marathon for instance, 6 units of Roman infantry can place barricades at random to prevent cavalry from maneuvering and drastically affect the impact cavalry will have (essentially cut them out of the match) so maybe try new tactics instead of ask for another nerf to cav..........Or go play and post several (not one but several) screenshots of your OP cavalry at the matches end...........As for the FF to cav then how will cav be able to flank for friendly spear units??? Think of all the repercussions that will affect in the meta of the game currently??? The cavalry numbers will be cut down to about a quarter (just like what happened in the steam version at one point) then everyone will see that it caused the Meta to go wonky and  scream because archers are everywhere...........No more nerfs to cavalry...........

 

   Commander wise when Alex is fully upgraded on a T7 level his Hammer ability has a 25 second cool down which is a bit quick (but then again they do want fast paced matches) because you can do just fine with a 35 second cool down, you might have to work harder or time better but still acceptable........His wedge starts out with the 3 second wind-up, fine then, bump it up to 5 and that will still be acceptable (the cool down on wedge is good where its at)........The damage upgrade to Hammer must stay because Alex's charge is no where as easy to use as Scipio's is because the charge is quite short (hence more damage).........The charge impact on wedge is the real kicker I say its fine how it is because if someone blobs their infantry then that's on them quite frankly............There are several other matters more of a nuisance right now than cavalry is especially the war dogs and the excessive camping (due to arty) you witness in half the matches.......

 

    Some simple truths>>>>>> If you sit still in Arena then you will be shot by something! If you move forward all alone then you will be attacked by something! If you don't watch your back you will be charged by cavalry! If you're playing as cavalry and don't pick your point of interest correctly you will be killed by war-dogs! If you run roman swords and go in the woods you will be killed by barbarians! If you are Barbarians and go in the city streets to fight you will be killed by everything! Everything has a counter in this game except an expert camping session..........Arena is a fast paced environment (actually faster than the steam version was) that involves people wanting to excel above the rest and lets face it there will always be others who are better at understanding when and how to use a particular type of unit as opposed to the less situational inclined individuals......So just because you're having problems facing a particular type of unit don't become butt-hurt and go on a crusade to nerf it even further.......Take me I always rage about arty but I don't say NERF it instead I just say make it more expensive to replenish............Perhaps cavalry should be more expensive to replenish as well after all weren't cavalry quite a handsomely expensive feat to maintain in the Antiquity period???

Also this isn't directed at anyone just my opinion on the subject.........*__*

 

    


Edited by Ancient_Exile, 13 September 2017 - 06:04 AM.

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Whiskeyclif #15 Posted 27 September 2017 - 05:23 PM

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Amen ancient exile.
I posted this idea on someone's rant about artillery.
Sure things need tweaking and they will be tweaked eventually, in the meantime it just forces different tactics to cope with the challenge

Shoockwav #16 Posted 30 September 2017 - 07:50 PM

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@Ancient Cavalry isn't something you just learn to face, whenever i see archers firing at cavalry, they take little damage. After that cavalry just charge at the archers and instantly wipe out. I play infantry and whenever i see cavalry it's gg for me, they charge, run away, charge back, repeat




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